British culture through Chinese eyes1

British culture through Chinese eyes

Hundreds of thousands of Chinese have studied abroad in the last few years. It must have had some effect on them, and China, but what?

Britain's drinking culture has blighted its image

I've written before that one thing that I think is fascinating and severely understudied is the experiences of such students during their years away. Well, actually, I think it's not just Chinese students - the huge increase in various exchange programmes around the world has sent millions of young people to different countries in the name of friendship and improved mutual understanding. Has it worked? I have heard some say that the experience appears on many occasions to reinforce previous prejudices.

Well here at last is a serious study of Chinese students in Britain. Since 100,000 Chinese students are currently in America and Britain alone, (around half of those in Britain, currently) - that's no small thing.

It's not perfect: the sample size is small, by its own admission, and often the prejudices of the surveyors are all too evident. Take this conclusion, for example:

Another participant described the difficulties of her own marriage and how her experience of living in British society had made her much more committed to human rights for women. Such developments can be seen as positive effects of cultural exchange. Higher education has a crucial role in allowing people to explore their own potential and to re-evaluate the conditions under which they and others live. This is education in its truest sense.

I can't disagree with the principle but the assertion that "this is education in the truest sense" is quite a, well, assertion.

Anyway, it seems to me that the two main issues it addresses, apart from women's rights which is indeed a sort of running theme of the document, are firstly the nature of the students' social experiences of Britain, and secondly their academic experiences. I think I'll stick to the first today and look at the second tomorrow since they are distinct and important.

The headline finding is undoubtedly rather shocking and frightening, though not in truth surprising. The thing Chinese people don't like about us is that we are a nation of drunken yobs. The report summed up:

The behaviour of British young people was the biggest shock to people’s expectations. While older people were generally seen as polite, the young were widely thought to be drunken and out of control. Two thirds of the sample named this as an issue.

And here are some quotes:

"I went to Leeds – it was rough and dirty. Girls danced on tables with no underwear – wore short skirts, were vulgar."

"Gentle country not true, too many drunk people, terrible young people everywhere."

"Young people get drunk – the behaviour would be frightening."

"I hate the teenage people with little education, gathering around, holding booze, talking rubbish."

"Bloody terrible young people – not so well educated, very rough – drunk culture."

"Fighting in the street, drunken hooligan."

"Crime of youth, doing nothing, in the street threatening people."

"There is an emptiness in night life there – party, party and nothing else – at the night the people are boring. When I went to England, I thought there would be something special in culture – people would say interesting things – speak about plays or stories. I thought it would be a garden of thinking."

On occasion, this turned particularly nasty:

"Most of my female friends said they were afraid to go out at night, when it was dark in winter. In Leeds and Birmingham, the universities gave personal alarms to all the female students."

"Young people are rude to Asian or African looking people."

There were several descriptions of overtly racist behaviour, and though none had personally experienced serious violence, they knew of or had read about such cases.

This contrasted with their prior expectations - extraordinarily, many of
them seemed to have drawn their presumptions about British society from the pages of Jane Austen and 19th century novels - polite, formal gentlemen, top hats, tea on the lawn etc.

It also contrasted with their experiences of older British people, and smaller cities (than say Leeds or Birmingham), where many were pleasantly surprised by the politeness and friendliness they encountered. One Shanghaier couldn't quite believe it when a car stopped at a pedestrian crossing for him.

Another liked the way everyone said please and thank you all the time. In such places there were constant reminders of a notion of "civic values": one student stopped to ask the way and the people asked took them to the place they wanted to find. (This has happened to me in China too: I think this is a common way of treating foreigners round the world).

It's pretty depressing that foreigners see us like this, pretty much because there is certainly truth to it. There are some defences: I suspect many Chinese (and people from other less developed countries) would expect British cities to be the hub of "civic virtue" and prosperity, as cities in China are.

To the Chinese, it is the country person (nongmin? peasant? see debates elsewhere) who are all too often portrayed as "uneducated", "vulgar", "rough" and even "drunk". In Britain, of course, we have switched socially perhaps more than anywhere else in the world: cities, apart from London, are for the working classes, young people and immigrants; small towns, suburbs, and villages are for quiet, dull "middle England".

There's also no shortage of uncouth and drunken behaviour in China (and promiscuous, too, another shocker for Chinese students in Britain). It's just that's the preserve of middle-aged, well-heeled men, not young ones, who have less cash.

Nevertheless, I find the drinking culture in Britain hard to stomach sometimes. It's hard for us to take this seriously or to do so without seeming hypocritical - which of us has not, on some occasion, had too much to drink, wandered into a Chinese takeaway on the way home and made a joke about egg foo yung? Yet my impression, on return visits, is that it is
getting worse as young people undeniably are getting better off. And it has potentially serious consequences.

I have never thought of myself as a harrumphing middle-Englander, a disgusted of Tunbridge Wells. But then I do work for The Daily Telegraph, and as I have had occasion to remark before, the conservative values of a Telegraph reader are probably more in line with those of China and many other "developing" countries, including if not especially "anti-Western" ones, than you might expect.

Here's my concluding anecdote. I hope you see its relevance.

A few years ago, I was taking a night bus in London back to the East End, where I lived, after some slightly drunken function or another, and I ended up sitting next to a Senegalese asylum seeker. We got chatting. He had come to London from Paris.

There was too much racism in France, even though as a French speaker it ought to have been easier from a language point of view. In fact, he now spoke beautiful English, of the sort that many Africans and Indians and now Hong Kong Chinese do, who have learned it as a second or third language and thus have avoided cliches and junk-speak.

But despite being a qualified professional (engineer from memory) he could only get a job in a fast-food restaurant. As an asylum-seeker, even that was probably illegal. So life in Walthamstow was pretty tough (he lived there; his job was in Lambeth).

When he asked me what I did, I have to confess I was a little nervous. The media in general were pretty hostile to the number of illegal immigrants who claimed asylum at that time, and the Telegraph was among those arguing for a crackdown. But when I said I was a journalist for the DT, he was delighted.

"That's my favourite paper," he said. "I read it every day." Slightly taken aback, I asked why. We didn't exactly advertise ourselves as the paper for inner-city ethnic minority illegal immigrants/asylum seekers. Was it the news coverage, for which we've always had a good reputation? (I hoped so, being a news person myself).

"Well yes, the news coverage is famously good," he said. "But I like the editorials most. It is the family values, you see. I thoroughly approve of its stance on family values." Of course, when you think about it, it makes complete sense that immigrants from developing countries (and refugees from quasi-communist or dictatorial socialist regimes, to boot, in many cases) should have conservative values. Perhaps Chinese students should be seen in that light.

At one Telegraph leader (opinion page) conference I attended, the paper's thinkers were considering backing a campaign by Minehead council to stop men wandering around town with no shirts on. Such uncouth behaviour didn't fit the town's sedate image. I protested, on grounds that personal freedom was at stake - if you couldn't take your clothes off in a seaside town, when could you? But I was outgunned.

Every time I hear a decree by Beijing city government trying to stop men rolling their vests up above their beer bellies (a common back-alley practice in summer, for those who aren't here), all to give the city the best possible "face" for the Olympics, I think back to that conversation. I think I know whose side the Chinese students in the Glasgow University survey would be on.

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It's not a booze problem in the UK, it's a Blitz grief/prosperity guilt problem

Walt O'Brien
26 Jun 2007 22:33

I wouldn't write this but for the fact that I have a nasty and useful habit of poking at co-workers' soft spots so I have an idea of how they'll act under stress.

The number of grandchildren and children of Shoa (or to the general public, Holocaust: six million dead weren't a burnt offering to the gods, it was plain murder for hire) of my acquaintance number in the dozens, and many of them have sought out and needed some form of clinical counseling to come to terms with their intergenerational burden. It's sounds like vanity therapy until you recognize that living with and being the child of someone who has been through Hell and back can be just as traumatic as having been through it one's self.

In the instance of the English, apart from some immediate postwar dealings with the most obviously traumatized of Blitz survivors and children of servicepersons, not much attention has been paid to the issue. I respectfully submit it would behoove some clinical pysch prof in the UK to throw a curve ball at their class and ask them: "To what extent has the trauma of your parents and grandparents in wartime influenced your lives?" I've been quite shocked pursuing the issue with my British boomer peers: the responses have ranged from blank, angry stares to "None of your effing business" to tears.

That's one source of the nihilistic boozing, to my mind. The other is simple (what I call) "Hippie guilt." We Boomers didn't reject capitalism loudmouthedly on campuses becuase we lacked the entrepreneurial spirit, nor even saw grabbing stuff and running as morally reprehensible: "grabbing stuff and running" is basically the best four-word definition of the Sixties I can craft. Rather, we felt guilty at not sharing the Depression and the hardships our parents experienced: their sufferings made us look like freeloaders of the spirit, which we were and still are. It's beyond our comprehension what they went through to make today's world, and we know it.

And it is the same thing with today's British nihilism. The UK has never enjoyed such prosperity as today. Just comparing today to 1971 are two entirely different worlds. I also entertain a sneaking suspicion that "This won't last long, so enjoy it while you can" attitudes are also part of the uncontrollable blubbing fuelled by booze running amok.

As a parting thought, it's obvious to me the UK is drawing its spirit together for a big push in a (hopefully) forward direction. Kids are dumping high-paying but trivial IT jobs in London to go back to schools like Nuffield to learn building technology, then scarpering off to (yes) China or Africa or the Middle East or the USA to build a new world, if they cannot do so in England.

You're a nation of craftspersons whose tools have been stolen by bankrupt and narcissistic ideology, and most are in search of those tools, if they haven't found them already. The mass boozing's just a good, stiff tot of rum before fixing bayonets and waiting for the whistle for another go.

The UK should have done the Viet Nam bit to defend Hong Kong, treaty or no treaty, even if you lost. They're sweet people who are proud to have carried a British passport as colonial subjects. The least the Crown could have done was let them all emigrate to the UK. Do you know what's a funny idea? A Chinese on the dole. England needs them now.

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Welcome to the real world (spit here)

Andrew Milner 
26 Jun 2007 23:10

Here in Asia, I lean heavily on the "English gentleman" image, as I seek my fortune in the colonies. Fortunately, image, both spatially and temporally, lags some distance behind a far less attractive reality. Just hope that when image finally catches up with reality, I'll be passed caring. Because it not, all I'll have going for me is my rapidly fading good looks, questionable boyish charm, plus a range of pseudo erudite, briefly convincingly one-liners. A dismal prospect indeed, kind sirs.

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One Perspective on Studying the UK

JeffM 
27 Jun 2007 00:12

Thanks for the great, insightful article. It hits close to home for me because I'm currently studying as a postgrad in England, and I have quite a few Chinese/Taiwanese friends. Actually, I'm Canadian, so I have my own foreign perspective on the UK as well, so usually my conversations with Asian students here revolve around our impressions as foreigners in the UK. I used to live in Taiwan and China, so I always find the comparisons, and what they have to say, quite interesting.

The number one complaint, by far, is the cost of living and studying here. Even the students who I suspect can afford to be here still like to complain about it. Everybody knows that the UK is expensive, but it just seems unfairly expensive sometimes... Most Chinese students I've met study in business or finance related fields and pay upwards of £12000 a year, so you can believe that some are stressed about money.

For many, I suspect, it's more expensive than they bargained for, and hidden costs, like renewing a UK Visa for £300, start to add up, and next thing you know it's eating instant noodles everyday for a few months.

Some students complain about quality of teaching, but I suspect a lot comes down to educational cultural differences.

The other complaints are very much like you have described -- too much drunkenness and not enough to do at night... other than go to the pub. I personally don't think it is too bad, but then I don't flush red and feel dizzy everytime I have a drink... and I wouldn't rather be singing... Anyways, student culture here is similar to Canada... maybe a little more drinking here. 7 pubs on my uni campus, which seems a bit overkill.

But I think you're right that a lot of Chinese people are quite conservative about some things, especially about behaving in public, and the drunkenness can be a bit shocking.

I think, on the whole, there's less interaction between local students here and Chinese students, compared to Canada. I don't know why that is.

Lack of convenience is a common theme among my discussions. That should come as no surprise to anybody who has been in China where there's a 7-11 every 100 meters.

I've also heard complaints about racism. But I wonder if some of this has to do with culture shock. For most Chinese students in the UK this is their first time travelling abroad. But then some of it must be real because I have a few heard stories of young people shouting racist slurs or throwing things.

Actually, I like it here and I'm sure lots of Chinese do too. I just sympathize with other foreign students who are less familiar with living in a western society or unprepared for the costs.

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It's not just the Chinese...

Fernandez 27 Jun 2007 04:01

Pretty much the whole world recoils at the thought of hosting drunk, British yobs.

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the real world

Chris Stevens 
27 Jun 2007 05:31

In my first job in China I worked for a company that organised for Chinese students to study at universities in the UK. My main job was as liaison for the CCP cadre training schools arranging for mature cadres to study MBAs and as a side business we arranged for the sons and daughters of cardres to go to the UK when necessary. Most of these students were academically very bright and 18 years old yet in maturity terms they were more like a British 14 year old at best. We often wondered what sort of shock they would get when they arrived at Leeds or wherever to be confronted by British 18 year olds intent on having a good time. Most were pretty shocked!

When I was at university, people drank, smoked, took recreational drugs, slept together and generally 'had fun' when not studying, I saw one or two people go too far but generally everyone kept things under control and graduated with good degrees. In China, a good student would usually not expect to have a fun/ work balance in the same way; there is more the view that good people do not do bad things and even if they do want to go off the rails it is harder to do so when a bag of drugs costs two-month's salary and everyone lives in dormitories 8 to a room.

Many of my Chinese friends who have returned from studying in Britain were shocked by the behaviour of some young brits but at the same time are sensible enough to know that a society will always have unsavoury elements. To accuse all Brits of being drunken yobs would be just as unfair as judging all Chinese girls by the minority that hang around in bars and chase westerners.

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Welcome to the real world: foreigners using chopsticks is not the most important thing in life

John Nanchang China 27 Jun 2007 05:51

Many aspects of ‘British culture’ are not pleasant there days; there is no denying this. However, Chinese students [I live and work in Jiangxi] in particular formulating their view of what life in Britain is like from the novels of Jane Austen or Charles Dickens, with croquet, smog, umbrella-carrying, English gentlemen, cream teas and tops hats cannot be underestimated or undervalued in an argument. Have nobody in China heard of George Orwell at least; after all, he was a lifelong socialist?
What view would one expect from a Chinese girl (or guy) of 24, possible 25, who has never been so much as kissed expect of life in a post-industrial, student-centred communities such as Birmingham academia? A female doctor literally ran out of the examining room once just because I pulled my trousers down so she could examine and treat my very painful, cracked knee after playing football?

Only last night I tried to explain to 22/23/24 year old students what my heady, proletarian, working-class life was like growing up in Stockport / Manchester and frequenting the local discos of a Saturday evening hoping to ‘get lucky’ alongside my peers, which only left them open-mouthed and a little lost for words, except for the very predictable question: how many girlfriends have you had?

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Hiring

Frank Mulligan
27 Jun 2007 07:21

Richard,

I tend to see these kinds of issues through the lens of the hiring process in China.

In the past few decades, when people left China they tended not to come back. That meant their intelligence and diligence stayed in Old Blighty, or wherever, and benefited the economy there.

Now they mainly come back for the opportunities they see in China. But who knows how often they don't come back because of this issue of trash behaviour in the UK.

It's euphemistically called doo-dooing on your own doorstep. Hard to understand when its not your doorstep.

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Absolute Rubbish

Andrew Denney 
27 Jun 2007 08:36

My wife is is from mainland China, and while she and many of her female friends do not drink, their husbands like to get very drunk indeed. Moreover it is precisely because I like to get riotously pissed with them that I have been able to break down their erroneous perception of us Brits as stuffy, insincerely polite and nonchalant. "You are just like the Japanese in your little island pretending to be polite and really looking down on everyone else!" I have been told on different occasions. However the Chinese cannot accuse us of rascism without the very worst of hypocrisy. As a "white ghost" married to a Chinese I know that black people are variously "black ghosts" or "gorillas". So give me a break and work out that the traits the Chinese are criticising in us are als0 widely apparent in themselves. As soon as I say "Wo bu shi huan A Cha" in a drunken baritone my Chinese chums degenerate into fits of laughter and nods of aggreement. They apparently don't like Pakistanis either!

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Give me a break

Nick McGine 
27 Jun 2007 10:02

You surely must be aware of how poor the Chinese are at mixing with and fitting in to other cultures (being financially successful isn't the same thing). When I lived in London, I met many Chinese through my first wife (Chinese) and was amazed how little they knew about the people with whom they shared their lives. They would still refer to us as 'Foreigners', making the strangest assumptions about the way we lived. No wonder they are so atrocious at speaking English. An IELTS student of mine has now spent a year in Finland, where there are quite a few Chinese students. His English, now, is worse than when I was teaching him. Why? Outside of class, he only ever speaks Chinese. How, then, can they possibly get to know the indigenous people, if they never venture to actually speak to them? If I were to judge the Chinese by what I see in the street every day, I would have a very low opinion, indeed. As it is, I speak the language, talk to the locals and have a (non-English speaking) Chinese wife.
As for discrimination, you must know, Richard, that the Chinese love to play the victim. That is why it is so easy for the government to whip up anti-Japanese sentiment. It is easier to blame someone else - preferably a foreigner - for your failure than admit to your own shortcomings. I hear this kind of nonsense all the time.
When my students want to hear about England, I try to give them the whole picture, not just the rosy view, or the currently-fashionable self-loathing from the 'liberal' chattering classes. Warts and all. If they could be bothered to use the Internet for something other than playing games and chatting on QQ, they might learn something that their outdated texrbooks don't tell them.

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Secret lives

Michael Gorman
27 Jun 2007 10:36

I reply to Nick McGine, "little they knew about the people with whom they shared their lives".

I have this theory that in the privacy of their own homes, French people speak to each other in English, and Chinese people eat using knives and forks.

In other words, the French language and the use of chopsticks are just practical jokes against outsiders.

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Malaysians disspointed with experience in Britain

mahathir_fan 
27 Jun 2007 10:51

I have many Malaysian friends who went to Britain to study. Upon their return, I asked them about their experiences there.

Many are dissappointed. The general feedback was that the British students don't mix with them. Another common thing to hear was "uptightness".

I have also noticed this in toddlers. When you visit a Malaysian playground for example, the toddlers very quickly strike up "gangs" and develop a social heirachy. In UK playgrounds, the toddlers tend to be more individualistic.

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my own experience

Hai at Shanghai 
27 Jun 2007 12:07

As a Chinese student who has studied in UK before, I think the points Richard raised in this blog could represent some Chinese students attitude towards UK as a whole.

the drunk culture:
although I should admit in China you could occasionally see anti-social behaviors of some drunk people, it could not on a par with UK where it widespread across the whole country. Personally speaking, I quite understand the pub culture of British where people could gather around and make friends. This is particular important for them especially after a long day they might need relax and have some fun. But what I don't understand is why they think get drunk is fun. Why couldn't they just have some drinks but not drunk?

Cost of living:
I think the cost of living is the biggest headache for Chinese students as the Sterling is one of the strongest currencies in the world. Now 1 GBP equals to 16 Chinese RMB. Thus when we are shopping in big supermarkets like Tesco, Sainsbury and find just 6 tomatoes will cost us 1.50 pounds(24 Chinese RMB) while in China such amount of money could buy you a full meal. You could imagine the response of Chinese students. However when they stay in UK longer and used to calculate everything in pounds and not in RMB they might find actually the prices are reasonable . But I do admit I am a little bit lucky as when I studied in UK, I got full scholarship from the University I studied. Therefore as my "income" is in pounds, I didn't worry about the cost of living.

Marginalization:
Some Chinese students in UK I met do like to isolate themselves from others, mainly due to their language proficiency.With very rudimentary English, they don't have the ability and confidence talk to others using English.

However, on the other side, what I found when I was in UK was that not only Chinese feel marginalized other minority group also did. In other words, when you took party in some activities in the university, you would find British students talking to British students while international students chatting to other international students. Then I just wonder are Chinese students isolate themselves or British students don't want to mix with other international students, in particular those students who come from a more culturally distant country?

In addition, based on my personal experience I found the young British are quite sensitive and sometimes don't take any criticism. For example, on a international business class, the lecturer suddenly discussed whether Taiwan was part of China or not. I feel a little bit upset as this is a course on international business. According to the course outline, that class should be discussing some basic theories in this field. I could find any clues how the topic of Taiwan interdependence could link to those economic theory. As I do not want to waster my time and tuition fee to hear some off topic stuff, therefore I stood up and asked the lecturer to back to the original topic. But the response I got was that was "his freedom of speech" which I could not get in China. But I just wonder in their understanding of "freedom of speech" means they could waste students' time and tuition fee?

Politeness:
As for the British politeness, I should say if you just stay here for a couple of days or weeks, you will find British in general are polite. But under the surface of this politeness are three different kinds of views towards Chinese students in the UK universities:

1. the first one are those people who treat themselves as the Saviour of China. According to them, all the Chinese students are rich but uncivilized people. Thus their job is instill their "decent" British value into Chinese and teach them how to be civilized.

2. the second kind of people don't treat Chinese students as students. They treat them as their customers, as overseas students pay much more than their local counterparts. Under such kind of view, they are extremely polite to Chinese students to present world class customer service but don't focus much on the materials they teach.

3. the final kinds of people are those people I like most. They treat Chinese students equally as those local students. They focus on the course material and treat university as a bridge to exchange ideas as well as culture. They respect the difference and be open minded.

Finally I would like to conclude my comment with some defenses of Chinese ignorance of UK. I think they should not be blamed for such ignorance because they don't have any opportunity to expose to them. Let me make it clear. Since 1840 to World War I, if you look at some historical evidence, you will find that it is UK that have dominate influence on China. However, after that, USA was rising while UK was declining. Since 1978 when China embarked on the economic reform till now(2007), if you look at some statistics, you will find it is USA,Japan, HK and Taiwan who take a lion share in the foreign investment into China. In terms of the number of foreign residents living in China, again American is far more than British. Even in films and TV, American programs is far more popular than British in China. If you don't believe, ask you Chinese friends what films in their memory are quite famous and is produced by Britain, I guess their answer is no more than James Bond, Harry Potter, BJ Diary or others. Under this situation, how could you expect a normal Chinese to fully understand current Britain?

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We always judge against our own standard

MarkE 
27 Jun 2007 12:15

Having enjoyed living and working overseas, and living and working in this country alongside foreign (ex-pat) colleagues, I have learned that there are distinct national characteristics. I have also learned that most nationalities have a group equivalent to the British "Chav", despised by the majority who are embarassed by their existance. It is possible that we are more willing to give this group publicity than other countries are, and are therefore judged on the perception that there are more of them.

Many foreigners coming to the UK complain about being excluded by the British, but we are not as open as (say) mediteranean nations, and we do keep ourselves to ourselves. If I don't want to socialize with you it is not because you are foreign, it is because I am an up-tight, asocial Englishman who doesn't want to socialize with anyone. I have felt intimidated when working with Spaniards (and Catalans) if I didn't want to join them for a social lunch, but I know that is their culture. There is nothing wrong with it, but it is not mine.

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Not just Chinese

SW 
27 Jun 2007 13:20

I think it's important to realise that being a foreigner in the host country is tough, no matter whether you are Chinese or British. The hosts inevitably share some characteristics, understanding of their language, what amuses them - and not least they have a history there that you as a foreigner dont. I am British and lived in Scandinavia for 7 years, spoke the language etc, yet still i ended up with a group of best friends that included people from all corners of the world EXCEPT the local host! So perhaps these students also need to understand that being abroad brings lots of rewards, but also lots of challenges that have nothing to do with your colour or your views on Taiwan

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http://chuckman.blog.ca/

John Chuckman
27 Jun 2007 14:02

Canada has developed almost an industry in receiving students from China. It has afforded a wonderful opportunity to learn something on a human scale of these remarkable people.

My wife and I were 'homestay' parents for a bright young man from China for more than two years. I've also taught a good many Chinese students in first-year economics.

Our experiences confirm the observations you cite, although the emphasis is different for Canada. While they exist in Canada, 'yobs' seem to be a peculiarly British phenomenon.

The world web of these young people is remarkable. Often they know peopole who are or were students in another country like Britain. And out of their fancy laptop computers, they stay in touch.

Generally, Chinese students are struck with the personal behaviors in Canada. Widespread divorce especially is something they have a hard time grasping, at least in their early days of experience.

This leads to some unpleasant and funny stories you will only hear when you have gained a bit of trust. Two students I know were stuck in a terrible situation which they did not want to tell their parents back home about.

Their 'homestay' father brought home a woman for a weekend when the 'homestay' mother was away. The mother recognized what had happened immediately and got the poor students involved by insisting they tell her the truth. This all became extremely unpleasant.

Imagine two teen-agers studying half-way round the world being caught in a ferocious family feud?

The students did eventually speak up, especially because other chronic abusive behaviors appeared, and they were removed to a new 'homestay' that proved a happy place. The marriage ended.

By the way, Chinese stufdents tremendously enjoy getting together for beer and karioche (which they pronnounce something like kalioche), but I'm not aware of much in the way of debasing behavior in these get-togethers.

By the way, I do think the idea that there is much of a connection in Britain with sudden affluence is extremely wrong-headed. Has the writer never heard of the gin-mills and gin-soaked drunks on the streets during 19th century Britain? It was epic in proportions.

There does appear to be varying tendencies towards alcoholism in the genes of various groups. In Canada, aboriginal people seem very vulnerable. The Celtic people seem to have the same tendency, as do many Slavs.

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The Chinese are much more racist than the Brits

Omair Azam 
27 Jun 2007 16:33

"Young people are rude to Asian or African looking people."

As a British Asian working in Beijing, I have to take this comment with a pinch of salt, since my Chinese coworkers all refer to me as "black man", and so it has to made clear that the Chinese have much more racist tendencies than the British will ever have.

Furthermore, I will echo what many others have already mentioned, that being how the Chinese do not mix with locals wherever they study, and so in the case of the UK they really will never understand why going to the pub on a Friday or Saturday night is a normal custom.

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Drunkeness

Asian Bloke 
27 Jun 2007 17:13

I think that there is every likelihood that the perception of drinking alcohol is overplayed in this understanding of drinking culture.

I have seen it recently in China the advent of gambaiing large cups (just under half a pint of beer). Chinese older generations love to drink maotai in small cups until someone inevitably falls over which to me always seems very strange. Business cannot be conducted without massive volumes of maotai being consumed until someone inevitably falls over.

Drinking culture is alive and well in China, it just may not be so alive and well among the conformist robotic students that China is pumping out.

What they seem incapable of understanding is that is perfectly possible to drink a couple of beers every night and not have a drinking problem. It may well be related to the hidden vestiges of Buddhism where to consume mind bending substances is forbidden.

There is absolutely no culture what so ever in China of the social beer, or a glass of wine with dinner. It is power drink until you drop, and if you believe Chinese society to be this calm ordered place, you should see nightclubs in most major cities on a Saturday in China. No better and no worse than any town in the UK.

I fear that the responses you have got concerning their opinion of drinking in the UK, are rather pollyanaish. The students saw their chance to put the boot in about a thing that they saw in the UK.

Much like many things in Asia, they have neglected to notice that they also have a rather strange and volume obsessed alcohol culture revolving around an utterly unexportable spirit of 45% alcohol. Totally unmixable with anything, guranteed to make you wake up smelling of fermented rice, and desperately in need of a greasy spoon.

Oh of course the students wouldn't know about that, and that is the real shame of their experience in the UK. They were here, but not really here. Maybe they should have had a beer or two and really integrated to appreciate the experience of studying in the UK.

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Give me a break!

cc 
27 Jun 2007 17:31

Omair Azam,

"since my Chinese coworkers all refer to me as "black man", and so it has to made clear that the Chinese have much more racist tendencies than the British will ever have."

Your statement does not make any sense!
1. It is really an enlightment to learn from you that calling somebody "black man" is racism.
2. You appeartly took the name "black man" as an offensive insult (you do not want to be associated with anything "Black". Why?......)
3. Chinese call people of Cacasian origin "white man/woman", is that racism too?
4. You have demonstated a common tendency that racists usually possess, i.e. stereotyping. What have made it so CLEAR for you that the Chinese (a fifth of the human being) have much more tacist tendencies than the British will EVER have? A comment of "Black man" from a few coworkers? Give me a break!

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Any soberer?

cc 
27 Jun 2007 19:37

Many comments here (very likely from people of British origin) come to the defence of the drinking culture in the UK by finger pointing at the problems asscoiated with the Chinese students themselves and their home country. I just wonder if this can make the British drunkeness culture among youngsters any soberer? (I don't see the Chinese students accuse the whole British population being drunk.)

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Criticism

Nick McGine 
28 Jun 2007 02:48

Hai: To say that the British are averse to criticism is really calling the kettle black (tai guo fen le!). Even a slightly negative remark about Chinese culture or China in general produces outrage and automatically triggers the nationalistic defense mechanism. A Chinese teacher once told me that the Chinese have been brought up to believe that theirs is the oldest, greatest culture known to mankind, so when they see how successful other countries are (while theirs is still developing, with a great deal of foreign help), many develop an inferiority complex, which manifests itself in a show of superiority (criticising others). My wife always says that the Chinese are the most jealous people on earth.
As for the booze, we do have a long tradition of hard drinking, which I don't condone, despite enjoying the stuff, myself. I do, however, agree with Asian Bloke: Here in China, it really is the power drink. At my wedding, a Chinese friend kept getting me to 'ganbei' ('Down in one'). To me, it was very immature behaviour, not to say rather irritating. I ended up half-carrying him home.
Racism? The Chinese always deny that they are racist ("We are just interested"), but black people are, indeed, 'Monkeys/gorillas', other Asians are inferior Chinese clones and all foreigners are wallow in a sea of moral turpitude. A gross generalisation, of course, but, hey! I'm in the land of generalisations.

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at least you're not black

Chris Stevens 
28 Jun 2007 03:22

Years ago, sitting in Dalian airport on the phone to my (Chinese) girlfriend at the time she commented that i was 'becoming Chinese' to which I jokingly replied, 'would that be a problem?' She replied that no, I was fine becoming any racial group or nationality so long as I did not become black.

Equally, I cannot recall how many Beijing taxi drivers have complained at length about Africans and the Bao'an of our apartment block were decidedly unhappy about letting black friends come up to the apartment yet never once stopped a white friend and forced them to ring the bell for entry.

To say that all Chinese are racist would be wrong, but there is a lot of prejudice against black people in particular in China. In England, you might meet the odd racist moron but racism is not so ingrained through the whole of society.

CC actually has a point about drinking, pointing the finger back at China does not make Newcastle on a Friday night any more of a pleasant place.

One of the problems is that Brits drink because there is little else to do on an evening and due to the weather and cost of living, there is not much to do the next day so you may as well be hung-over. I think young adults also get the drinking over and done with at an early age- it is acceptable to drink until you pass out, throw up and embarrass yourself when you are under 25, but to do so at a business dinner when you are 45 would be social death.

In China the reverse is true, it is the 45 your olds that get carried out of restaurants blind drunk but the kiddies are tucked up in bed.

As my very understanding mother has said to me- drink and/ or drug use is a function of every society on earth and has been since the start of time. People like to get out of it, it is only in how they achieve that state of inebriated that the world differs.

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Racism?

AMoore 
28 Jun 2007 06:23

"Chinese call people of Cacasian origin "white man/woman", is that racism too?"

Sadly, yes it is racism. There are many unpleasant attributes of life in the UK but in terms of racial tolerance/understanding China lags way behind. The virulent belief in racial supremacy is the big bad dirty secret of China.

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Study and alcohol: the pressure, the release and the price

Andrew Holmes 
28 Jun 2007 06:43

The respective behaviour of UK and Chinese university students should really be taken in context with pressures from both society and the family, related to the pre- and post-university experience. I'm probably going to stray into territory related to Richard's next blog, but I generally feel my ramblings are better placed here.

For me, as I would expect to be the case for many UK students, going to university is a way of escaping the rigidty of high school and the watchful eye of the parents, a process of self development, as much as it is about getting a degree. Employment at the end of the line is hardly a priority at the outset.

I've spent time at two Chinese universities; firstly as a teacher in Yangzhou in Jiangsu, secondly as a student at Tsinghua University in Beijing.

When I asked my Chinese students last year their priorities, most said that finding a job upon graduation to support their families later in life was either the highest or a high one. (Marrying a rich man was a serious alternative for many girls.) With a far more developed social security system in the UK, as well as for historical and deep-rooted cultural reasons, less and less Brits are feeling this pressure. I suppose we should some more(?).

My Yangzhou students also felt that, despite China's economic growth bringing more and a wider range of employment opportunities for skilled graduates, the job sector would still be a massive challenge to break into. The task is slightly less daunting for Tsinghua students who benefit from an OxBridge-like prestige.

Moreover, the weekly schedule at a Chinese university is far fuller and more highly regulated than mine was. A Chinese friend here at Tsinghua talks of sleeping every other night due to the work load. Whilst I may have pulled an all night-er every once in a while at home I would hardly call it a regular policy, and it would always be due to my poor time management during the week rather than excessive work load per se.

Classes and lectures here appear to follow a philosophy; memorize this and you will succeed. This differs radically from my education where the emphasis was far more on understanding and critical thinking. (I like to think it's done me alright.)

With such a relentless schedule and the general sapping of creativity in education, the burden of family responsibilty and a competitive job market by success in which your status in society is cemented, it is hardly surprising that the majority of students have not acquired the habit of using alcohol as an escape method. In fact, it's hard to know whether many have one at all, let alone something that their UK peers wouldn't consider slightly immature.

That's the main socio-cultural rant, but I'd like to note the relative prices of drinking establishments in the UK and China. A drink at my college bar in the UK cost 1.20GBP when I first started in 2002 (thank you, bar Marion!). That's around 18RMB, about average for a beer in a cheap bar in either YZ or BJ. If you factor in that the average student meal for me in halls at home cost 2GBP (30RMB) whereas here it costs 40p (6-7RMB), it really shows how much more it costs to do out drinking in bars in China - less than a meal in the UK vs three times the price in China. Going clubbing in Sanlitun, a beer will cost twice as much; factor in the taxi fare and the entry fee and it's impossible for many local students to make a visit a regular activity.

In this context, it's hardly suprising that the idea and sight of some British students, supposedly armed with a Bond's sauveness, Hugh Grant's charm and the Queen's English, staggering home at 2.30am, slurring some profanity at a volume that could awaken the dinosaurs and possibly chundering on the pavement every once in a while, will garner both surprise and disgust from a Chinese university student.

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Bring it on home, Richard.

keith no longer in shanghai 
28 Jun 2007 07:46

No longer being a resident of the mainland, this blog and all posts were great, and brought back many fond memories. To understand any of the criticisms (or just observations??) of the Chinese students, you really have to appreciate the scale of the quantum leap of ethnocentricity in China.

As for poor Omar, you should all realise that calling him "black man" is not in itself racist to Chinese society, but simpley marks him out for one to be racist to in other ways.

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pub life

mickeylove 
28 Jun 2007 08:59

I have a friend who recently returned after two years in UK. I asked her what she missed most. her answer? Friday nights in the pub.

everyone is different it seems.

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Some Clarification

Hai at Shanghai 
28 Jun 2007 09:55

About drinking culture:

Reading comments posted here, I think it is necessary to clarify that Chinese students in UK in general are not against UK drinking culture but the drunk culture. To make it more clearer, what really make Chinese student in UK feel offensive is to see so many anti-social behaviors by people who drunk. Personally speaking, my bottom line towards these drunk people is as long as they will not bring negative consequences to others, I am ok with that. We are not against the culture of drinking. We are only against those people who drunk and did bad thing towards others.

About racism:

I should say racism exists in both UK and China, although in different forms. I don't want to deny that. But reading those comments it seems lost comments by posing finger towards others back to prove theirs is good. I fed up such kind of "my dad is better than yours" debate. It make me feel a little bit childish.

About criticism:

Nik, I didn't say British don't take criticism. Base on my personal experience, a lot of educated British are far more open minded than I thought. My previous comments posted here about British youth don't take criticms referred to those students and lecturer who wasted our economic lecturers time to discuss on the interdependence of Taiwan. I could not find any clues how could they justify the topic on Taiwan could link to economic theories. But when I stood up to tell them they used the excuse "that is their freedom of speech" to deny any charges. Do you think this is the behavior to take criticism?

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Drink vs Food

Jonathan Marsh 
28 Jun 2007 11:21

My Chinese wife is very much of the opinion that Britain is a 'drinking' country, equally l would argue China is an 'eating' country, where people quite litterally 'live' to eat tasty delicious delicacies, l would hope that we in Britain, do not 'live' for our friday night jaunt down the pub - although speaking to my colleagues this would seem to be the case...

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Hehe

cc 
28 Jun 2007 12:57

AMoore,

"'Chinese call people of Cacasian origin "white man/woman", is that racism too?'
Sadly, yes it is racism. "
Oh, really? Please enlighten me on this. Next time when I see a person on the street and want to make a comment on his/her clothing to my friend, what should I say?
1. "Hi buddy, look at that black/white/yellow/green... person over there."
"You bloody racist!"
2. "Hi buddy, look at that person over there."
"Which one?, That one, Which one, That one"

Also, I have often seen the word "black african" used in the western media, are they all racist?

"There are many unpleasant attributes of life in the UK (but they cannot be discussed) but (otherwise, here comes the key thing, I will point out to you that) in terms of racial tolerance/understanding China lags way(way and way...) behind. The virulent belief in racial supremacy is the big bad dirty secret of China."

So what? No Chinese student comes to the UK in order to critisize it. They were simple responding to a survey when asked for their opinion about the "yob drinking issue in the UK".

Nick writes "Even a slightly negative remark about Chinese culture or China in general produces outrage and automatically triggers the nationalistic defense mechanism." I wonder are those Chinese the only one?

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All Too Predictable

John Nanchang China 28 Jun 2007 13:17

Hai: I’m curious, how many times during your academic career in the UK did you stand up and ask the lecturer to go back to the original topic besides discussing the independence of Taiwan?
It would appear that the lecturer and the other students didn’t share the same opinion as yours about the nature of free speech. For me I thoroughly enjoyed the dynamic and colourful developing-from-the-main-topic paths of discussion at university, which travelled in so many interesting directions, as this was the essence of learning, but it seems that you struggled with this and had a limited horizon and limited expectations.

There were five Chinese students on my P.G.C.E. (FE) course in England. They sat at the back of the class and didn’t speak to anyone including the teacher who was trying to teach politics in discussion form. They couldn’t even manage a hello or a goodbye. One Chinese student permanently had an earplug in listening to something unrelated to the lesson. All fiddled constantly with an electronic dictionary. I tried to speak to them, but their only reply was that they thought I was Italian – which is a strange thing to say to an Englishman at a university in Yorkshire. They were a joke to be honest.
The guy from Somalia was a much more interesting person who had a lot to say both in and out of the lesson. He was a thoroughly exciting and interesting person who made a lot of friends easily.

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There's racism everywhere, including China

Omair Azam 
28 Jun 2007 13:36

CC,

let me clarify my statement for you, so that it makes clear sense.

1. In the PC world we live in, at least in the West, referring to someone as "white man" or "black man" can be construed as racist. In the UK you would refer to people as Asian or Afro-Caribbean, not by their skin colour.

2. I really do think you've taken more offense to my comment than I have to the actual comments of my colleagues. I'm not of African descent so I don't see the need to be labelled as black. But if I really did take offense I would take this issue up with my superiors, this is not a serious issue for me, I'm just making an observation. I have great colleagues at work and am living a very happy life in Beijing.

3. The Chinese, (a fifth of human beings) are not in any way displaying a BNP-style attitude to race, but do have inherent prejudices. My hua qiao friends can all back me up on this point without question.

The original article was about drinking culture in the UK, so let me add this. It's very much a man's world in China when it comes to drinking alcohol, even if in the UK there is too much binging, at least both genders partake. Here, it's just accepted that women don't drink, and those that do are "bad women", which I'm still struggling to come to terms with.

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John

Hai at Shanghai 
28 Jun 2007 14:24

John, frankly speaking in my 6 years staying in UK, I just had that experience once which might take me a while to forget it. Your explanation to my experience was due to my own limited horizons of free speech which I would not buy in. Let me explain why.

In just an hour lecture supposed to be on basic economic theories, the lecturer spend nearly 25 minutes discussing the issue on Taiwan and Falkland wars(and argued with an Argentina student on this issue). Could you tell me how could you justify such kind of behaviors as reasonable? All the students in particular those overseas students pay more than ten thousand quids to that university(one of the top red brick universities)to study economics, but what they got on that lecturers was off topic discussion on politics. Yes to some extent politics could be linked to economics, but not on that lecture as there is a special session on the macro environment of economy but not that one(which should focus on company profit and proficiency).

In short, John do you feel acceptable when you spent hefty money say to buy a laptop in the store and when returning to the home find that it is a printer. Then someone tell you that they are related to each other so you could not complain.

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Some responses

Jane Martina 
28 Jun 2007 15:16

As a Briton resident in China, I read this article with a bewildered interest. I take issue with many comments made therein, on a number of levels.

1. Some of the Chinese correspondents claimed that British cities such as Leeds were 'really dirty'. Have these people actually taken a look at their own cities? 9 of the 10 most polluted cities on earth are in China. And it's not just about pollution. The Chinese treat their environs like a personal latrine/rubbish bin. Whilst reasonably tidy in their own houses, outside, anything goes, from attending to calls of nature in broad daylight, to spitting, to dropping any rubbish as and when they feel like it. So to call British cities dirty, even poorer northern cities like Leeds, is just woefully hypocritical. A friend visited the city of Suzhou, seen as one of the most 'beautiful' cities in the country, and apparently comparable to Venice. She said that anyone who thought Suzhou was like Venice quite frankly needed their eyes (and noses) testing. I am lucky to live in one of the cleanest and most prosperous parts of China, but even so, parts are still utterly filthy, with rubbish piled high in the streets, rotting vegetables on the sides of the roads, etc.

2. About binge drinking. Well this is true, and it certainly is a fact that the British like their booze. However, that is one side of freedom. Chinese students aren’t to be found propping up the bar. But what are they to be found doing? Sitting in dank, grim, dormitories that would disgrace most prisons, that’s what, quite often with a night-time curfew of 9.30-11pm, after which they are locked in like prisons. Hardly a great existence. And while the drinking/bar culture is one downside of the UK, it is quite preposterous to claim that there is nothing much else to do. Most Chinese cities are huge, endless, sprawls, with very little in the way of real greenery, with choking, harsh air, no real parks to speak of (and certainly none that could compare to even an average UK park), and little to do other than go to greasy, atmosphere-free restaurants. Compare that to the range of theatre, cinema, parks, bowling, clubbing, leisure activities, available in the UK today, and it just seems crazy for anyone Chinese to complain that there is nothing to do in Britain. Also, as others have hinted, there is plenty of drinking going on in Chinese restaurants, it’s just less of an overall bar culture.
3. As to the race thing, just ask any foreigner about the stares, constant shouts of ‘hello!’ and ‘yang gui zi’ in any Chinese city. And that’s just for white foreigners, for blacks it is far worse.

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Drink/drunk culture

MarkE 
28 Jun 2007 15:23

I have to admit that, as an Englishmen, I find the glorying in drunkenness that is so common in British culture to be objectionable, so I can't criticise Chinese students considering this to be a negative aspect of their stay in the UK.

In living and working in other European countries, and with ex-pat colleagues from those countries (mainly, I have had some African, Asian and Oriental colleagues), although there may be a drinking culture, I have not found the same drunken culture. I feel that difference is important. Even Scandinavians, where I was warned about the drinking by older and wiser colleagues, were not as determined to get completely wasted and carried out; although they were heavy drinkers they were "lubricating the social situation" not drinking just to get drunk.

"What is wrong in my life/ that I must get drunk every night?" (Fine Young Cannibals)

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To Omair

cc 
28 Jun 2007 16:13

"1. In the PC world we live in, at least in the West, referring to someone as "white man" or "black man" can be construed as racist. In the UK you would refer to people as Asian or Afro-Caribbean, not by their skin colour."

At least you know to put it the word "in the west". In the UK it is considered "racist", then this must be applicable everywhere in the world? Words are just expressions, they do not necessarily carry racism, it is the people!

"2. I really do think you've taken more offense to my comment than I have to the actual comments of my colleagues. I'm not of African descent so I don't see the need to be labelled as black. "

It seems that being labelled as black is bad, I still sense a bit of racism itself here, however tiny. Michael Jackson did change his skin color in order to be labelled white, I guess.

"But if I really did take offense I would take this issue up with my superiors, this is not a serious issue for me, I'm just making an observation."
Sorry, I didn't see only observation in your first comment.

"I have great colleagues at work and am living a very happy life in Beijing."
How can you regard them as great colleagues when they use "racist comment" against you? So, the comments are not racist? Anyway, I am glad you are happy there and wish you good luck.

"3. The Chinese, (a fifth of human beings) are not in any way displaying a BNP-style attitude to race, but do have inherent prejudices. My hua qiao friends can all back me up on this point without question."

There prejudices everywhere, including China, and they should be eliminated. However, discussing prejudices in China should be left for another occassion, at least not with the topic of yob drinking in Leeds local pubs on Friday nights.

"The original article was about drinking culture in the UK, so let me add this. It's very much a man's world in China when it comes to drinking alcohol, even if in the UK there is too much binging, at least both genders partake. Here, it's just accepted that women don't drink, and those that do are "bad women", which I'm still struggling to come to terms with."

You are getting my point gradually. I just find it a bit ridiculous/amusing that people jump out and finger point at Chinese students, their country and even the Chinese in general over a local British issue. Racism in China is even introduced! What next? must be human right and democracy, etc.

Why? because they said something negative about the UK?

Finally, binge drinking is no good for neither men nor women. If there was such social "prejudice" in the UK against binge drinking by girls, I would regard it as something positive.

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Some more responses

cc 
28 Jun 2007 16:26

Jane Martina,

1. OMG, how come you end up there? Your must have been put on a rendition flight by the communists.

2. You are absolutely right. Those Chinese students should have praised the drinking culture in the UK, especially among the future generations of Britain, particularlly in citys like Leeds, don't forget the best of all, on Friday nights!

3. Those racist Chinese should be enlightened that "hello" is actually a rather insulting word in English. You are British, you must be the expert.

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The point

Jane Martina 
28 Jun 2007 17:09

The point was that some described UK cities as being 'dirty' Considering the utter filth that constitues most chinese cities, the near-total lack of any civic sense of pride or decency, it is utter hipocrisy to call UK cities dirty.

I would rather a few young people out enjoying themselves, than the zombified youths I see in China, sitting in their hordes in internet cafes, unthinking, unemotional, uncritical of anything.

As to 'hello', no it is not an offensive word in itself, it's all about context you see. No word is innately offensive, but when one has to hear "Helloooooo!" yelled out 10 times a day by witless radneck morons just set on being offensive, the word itself can, indeed, come to be offensive.

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Agree with Jane

Nicholas
28 Jun 2007 17:32

I think one of the points that has not yet been made is the effect of the sheer number of Chinese students in Britain.

When new Chinese students come over, they tend to congregate with the Chinese student community already extant in the UK. Thus the knowledge of the UK culture is limited to that which already exists in the group.

I find it incredulous for anyone to believe that there is less to do in the UK - the land of the best free museums, parks, thousands of miles of public footpaths, free libraries, stately homes, castles, historic towns, picturesque villages, bars, clubs, theatre, cinema, leisure activities, sports, societies... the list is pretty much endless. At Warwick University, where I did my undergraduate, there were close to 400 separate associations, many with only a nominal membership fee, in which you could sign up for things as varied as chocolate tasting to parachuting. In China, and I am sorry to say it, but there is almost nothing to do. Many's the time my students have wanted to meet up with me after class, and there is simply nothing to do, other than either meeting in my apartment or going out for dinner.

I think the point here is not that there is nothing to do in the UK, or nothing to do in China, but that the Chinese students studying in the UK could somehow not be aware of the quite simply vast amount of wonderful and beautiful things there are to do and see in the UK. Unless such Chinese students have local friends, how could they find out about such things from each other?

Other students of other nationalities are less "cursed" with the language barrier. For example, Greeks. There is a much smaller Greek community than there is a Chinese community. Therefore, while the Greek students may hang around together, no doubt they also socialise with students from other backgrounds. Their English is also better, which helps them in this regard.

The Chinese students, on the other hand, often coming to the UK with only an IELTS level of 5 or 6, which is pretty low, are shy to speak to non-Chinese people in China, let alone when they are abroad. Plus, there is the enormous temptation of simply joining the "Chinese bubble" that already exists in the UK. That is an easy way out. But it is very sad that so many of them will be learning so little about their host country or its people, or the many other international students they could have been making friends with and learning from.

I had a lovely Chinese friend at Nottingham when I did my masters there, and after 1 year in the UK, she had no English friends at all, and had never eaten any "British food". I took her to a quiet pub and she loved it. Why had she never tried it before herself? She had not needed to, or had the curiosity, I guess.

The best thing for Chinese students visiting the UK, I feel, would be to get out of that Chinese "bubble" and try harder to immerse themselves in the local culture and way of life. It does not mean they need to sleep around or drink themselves half to death (I'm British and I don't drink), but making a bit of effort to meet new people and learn from them is not too much to ask, and the onus is on them, rather than the local population, to make that effort.

It may be a crass generalisation (and haven't I been dealing exclusively in them about the Chinese in everything I have said so far, ha ha!) but the British aren't the kind of society to reach out to migrant populations. They're not likely to dismiss or reject overtures of friendship when they come, but my point is that the British aren't going to act like parents and take visiting students under their wing. Perhaps that is why Chinese students feel that the British are cold. They don't reach out to them. But it is not really their responsibility. And being strangers, cold and distant is part of the British psyche - that's one main reason why people drink - to get over the social barriers of meeting people and making friends.

But I also feel that the British can be very fair and friendly too, and that once the two communities get to know each other, they would get on fine. However, the British do often have a problem with communities of foreign nationals who don't integrate. Large groups of Chinese speaking only Chinese, not really talking to the other students, and cooking and eating by themselves is likely to generate resentment.

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integration issue

Hai at Shanghai  
28 Jun 2007 18:51

To Jane and Nicholas,

First of all, I should say in China they are plenty of leisure actives Chinese could do at night and during the weekend and not like you described as dull and have nothing to do. All the stores in Shanghai opened to 10 p.m., so they could shopping. British people like to go to pub, in China tea houses are the main social gathering point where they could chat with each other and make friends. For example, when I studied my first degree in Shanghai, at night I usually playing cards with friends in the tea houses. Furthermore, in the Chinese universities they are also variety of student associations that students could attend. For example, I met my first gf in a dancing club organized by the university. While my wife was the vice-chairman of reading association on western novels when she was in the university.

The key issue of Chinese students visiting UK here is the language and culture issue. I agree with Nicholas that Chinese students tended to just mixed with other Chinese students which further make them to lose the opportunities to speak English. But not every Chinese student is like that. Some are quite eager to make local friends here. The key issues sometimes are some local students due to variety reasons don't like to talk to and make friend with Chinese.For example, when I studied in UK, sometimes when I walking on the campus and seeing some students distributing some leaflet or coupons. But when I approached to them, they either pretended to ignore me or directly gave those leaflets to those students behind me. Then I just wonder because I am asia-looking then they could assume I will not interested whatever they adverted? Is this a discrimination?

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Key issues

Nicholas
28 Jun 2007 23:34

Hello Mr Hai,

I'm sorry I said there is nothing to do in China - my ire was more directed at the suggestion that there is nothing for Chinese students to do in the UK. To be honest, I can't think of many activities in the world you can't do in the UK. Certainly in China by comparison, there are far fewer things to do, playing cards in a tea shop aside...

Furthermore, I don't think the main problem for Chinese students is unfriendly locals. If that is the case, then why do students from other countries not have similar problems? As a UK citizen, I've never encountered any racism or animosity specifically directed towards the Chinese. Indians, Pakistanis, yes, we have seen the riots in places like Oldham a few years ago. But the Chinese? No. It sounds to me more like an excuse to suggest that UK students are unfriendly towards their Chinese counterparts. I think more likely is that the Chinese are too shy to approach locals, even when, as you say, they are keen to do so. Furthermore, they almost certainly lack the language abilities needed to converse and understand colloquial British. I don't mean this in a derogatory way, I think it's fair comment. I would also add that they may also not really know what to try and talk about - that is through the lack of real cultural understanding of countries other than China, Korea, and Japan, for example.

However, I am certain that British students would be very interested to meeting Chinese students, and asking them questions about China, since not so much is known about the country here. And, if I may say so , many British men find Asian women very attractive, and I'm sure would love to have the chance to find a Chinese girlfriend.

And, as I pointed out earlier, the British are not renowned for their ability to break the ice, and, in any case, it is the responsibility of the Chinese students themselves to do this. They are not children who need to be introduced.

As for your other example, Hai, you may get the feeling that you are being discriminated against because someone didn't give you a leaflet, but that doesn't have much bearing on whether or not they wanted to be friendly with you! Honestly! Yes, they might not have thought the content was interesting to you, or that you might not have understood - it may be biased, it may be an accurate assessment. But it is not unfriendly or even racist, there would have been plenty of other people they would have made the same judgements about. In any case, it was not a situation where you approached someone seeking friendship and were rejected, and your reading of the event as representing unfriendliness or rejection probably reveals more about your own sensitivities.

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Tea houses

Jane Martina 
29 Jun 2007 00:56

Tea houses in China are exorbitantly expensive! Usually they run around 80 - 100 RMB for a pot of tea! How many Chinese students can afford that? The idea of the tea house as a social centre in China is an utter myth.

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To cc...

AMoore 
29 Jun 2007 09:50

I, and others, have made plain that we agree that there are many problems with life in the UK. Is it really so hard for you to acknowledge that China also has problems that are relevant to the discussion?

I could understand the racism in China a great deal more if it were primarily directed at former colonials, but, tellingly, the greatest hostility is towards those from Africa, the Indian subcontinent, and the Philippines. In Hong Kong (where there's no excuse of lack of familiarity with other races) it's still common for Chinese people on public transport to ostentatiously move away from fellow passengers who are neither Chinese or white while muttering racist abuse in the (often incorrect assumption) that the subject of their contempt can't understand Cantonese. Similarly, Filipino and Indonesian domestic helpers are treated with a brutal lack of respect, despite their hard and appallingly paid work being the bedrock of the city's financial success.

Boorishness is unpleasant wherever it is, whether in the backstreets of Halifax or Hong Kong, Bristol or Beijing.

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Discrimination

Nicholas
29 Jun 2007 12:51

Of course there is discrimination and racism in China. It exists in every countries, though in different forms.

In China, mostly it is directed towards black people. I am "white" though I hate describing people according to colour, and I was intrigued by Chinese attitudes towards people from Africa or for example, Afro-Americans. Quite often the women would be terrified of them. I asked why, and they could not really give me an answer. It's a mixture of prejudice based on contempt as well as lack of interaction. There aren't that many black foreign nationals working in China, (at least I rarely saw any) and "black" is about as different from how Chinese see themselves (the whiter, the better)...

There was one British guy at my school, and he was black. He was pretty handsome, and he married one of the staff. A very popular guy, so I think it's the kind of discrimination that can fade with time. It's certainly not the kind of visceral hatred you can come across when you meet racism in the West, for example.

There is also discrimination against other Asian countries. A dear friend of mine, from India, had enormous trouble getting a job in China teaching English, though she had FOUR degrees and TEN years teaching experience. Compare that with the schools in China that quite often hire school leavers with no teaching experience whatsoever. In my city, I applied to no fewer than 25 separate language schools, and she was rejected by 24 of them. Many of the schools expressed an interest in her application, but rejected her as soon as they saw her nationality on her passport photocopy.

She is now working for an international school where she is dearly loved and appreciated - so those schools lost out.

Chinese attitudes towards other peoples though stem, I believe, from their history of isolation. It's always an "us" versus "the foreigners" mentality. They even seem to consider people of east Asian ethnicity as "Chinese", whether they live in the UK, Canada, or other Western countries. "Foreigners think this", or "foreigners always act like that" are common phrases in China. Whole cultures are lumped together - anyone who isn't Chinese exclusively eats hamburgers.

China must be one of the most ethnically homogenous countries in the world, and it is more due to this that apparently "racist" tendencies emerge. I don't believe it is malicious in the same vein of the Klu Klux Klan or the BNP in the UK.

Just my thoughts...

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Do not twist the topic

cc 
29 Jun 2007 14:00

AMoore,

When and where did I deny that there is racism in China on this blog. Point it out!

My point is clearly laid out. If you cannot understand, so be it.

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A reply from Hai

Hai at Shanghai 
29 Jun 2007 14:01

To Nicholas

Nicholas, I do buy in your idea that to some extent that the Chinese students should be blamed for their isolation in the UK society as sometimes they put the barrier for themselves. On the other side, I still doubt every British will like to make friends with Chinese, in particular those who might have some prejudice. However when next time I travel to UK, I would like to take the initiative to break the ice to see whether everything is just as you described.

To Jane

Jane, the tea house I went was near the university where a pot of tea just cost 20-40 RMB. Then with a group of 4 to 5 students together, this means each student will just spend 5 to 10 RMB per night for that social activity. As for the price you mentioned, I think you must refers to those tea houses located in more posh areas where most Chinese student will not go.

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Twisting and turning

AMoore 
29 Jun 2007 15:21

cc: "My point is clearly laid out."

Never more so than when your response to my comment on Chinese notions of racial supremacy was dismissed with the words "So what?"

"If you cannot understand, so be it."

Sadly, living in China, I understand you all too well. Belligerance will get you nowhere.

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A point of view from a British Chinese

Q 
29 Jun 2007 17:17

I am from a mainland chinese background, however I grew up in the UK and in many respects am more British than Chinese. Nevertheless, I also find the British drinking culture difficult. I don't think this is necessarily a Chinese v British thing but I've heard similar comments from many Italian, French friends and also friends from other nationalities.

I enjoy a drink and my parents have always encouraged me to have a sip of their drink when I was growing up and so I grew up with a very relaxed attitude to alcohol.

Nevertheless, I was shocked when I first went to a house party at the age of 16 and every one kept coming up to me and asking me whether I was drunk yet and if not, why not? It never occured to me that the point of drinking is to GET drunk. I always thought that drinking helped you to enjoy yourself when you are socialising and getting drunk was an unfortunate and unpleasant side effect, not that you HAVE to be drunk to have a good time.

As I got older, I realised that this attitude wasn't just confined to the 16 year olds. How often have you heard someone boast that they were "completely hammered" at the weekend? How often have you had colleagues go for a drink after work and stayed until pub closing without it even occuring to them to get some food? In nearly all other drinking cultures, food plays an intrinsic part. In China they go "restaurant hopping" not bar hopping, in Italy and Spain you would be drinking with nibbles automatically offered to you.

In Britain if you don't drink, people think you are strange. I've had experiences at work where people didn't think I was a team player because I wasn't drinking with them.

One of the reasons I think Chinese students find it hard to integrate at university is simply because so much of university culture centres around the pub and getting completely plastered. A lot of Chinese find this boring as quite often the pubs chosen are very crowded where you can't actually get a drink and play incredibly loud music so you can't actually have a proper conversation. The British are also more into banter and other light conversations which is harder to break into if you are a foreigner, especially as a lot of anecdotes seem to be centered around sex which for a lot of cultures is just not something that you would talk about in a large group. Even though I was brought up here I often found that I had more interesting conversations with other overseas students where we would talk about politics, art etc (usually over dinner rather than a pub)

Generally what annoys me the most is the pressure to get drunk and that if you don't then you are considered "boring"

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So be it

cc 
29 Jun 2007 21:38

AMoore,

"Is it really so hard for you to acknowledge that China also has problems that are relevant to the discussion? " Quote you.

It is not a bit hard for me to acknowledge that China also has problems, in fact too many problems, including racism. However I do not find racism in China is a bit relevant to the discussion about the problem of yob drinking culture in Britain, at least a problem perceived by Chinese students studying there (excluding you I reckon). Nevertheless, I am sure you and many others will have no difficulty whatsoever to link the problems in China with whatever issues/problems/troubles around the world, you name it. Well, that is you freedom, so I said "so be it".

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Hai

John Nanchang China 30 Jun 2007 04:26

I didn’t write that you have limited horizons regarding free speech. I did write that the other students and the lecturer didn’t share your opinion concerning free speech – not that free speech had anything to do with what took place I think.
I did suggest that your limited horizon was in your expectation of a university education and the nature of tutorials. I, for one, enjoyed all my tutorials whether they stayed on the topic or were allowed to develop into different intellectual areas. After all, if you were so keen to hone in on a specific economic theory why didn’t you just buy the book?

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It be so...

AMoore 
30 Jun 2007 15:14

cc: "I do not find racism in China is a bit relevant to the discussion about the problem of yob drinking culture in Britain"

The discussion isn't just about "yob drinking" it's about the wider perceptions that Chinese students have of the UK - one of those quoted perceptions being that "overtly racist behaviour" is a feature of British life.

The perception of an often unpleasant drinking culture in the UK is spot on, which is why nobody is challenging it. The reason why I, and others, are raising our eyebrows at the racism charge is that, collectively, the UK is far more welcoming to other races and cultures than China is. Xenophobia (along with a truly disturbing belief in racial supremacy/segregation) is part of the very fabric of Chinese culture, so it's perfectly reasonable to point this out.

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Re Hai

Hai at Shanghai 
30 Jun 2007 16:11

John, I am still not convinced about you judgment that I have limited horizon of tutorial. Please tell me what is you evidence of such kind of statement.

Furthermore, based on my 6 years in UK university(either be taught or teach). I do know the different between lecturers and tutorials. Could I just repeat the experience I had on that incident was during a lecturer not a tutorial which in that university is 50 minutes.

Being an academic staff, the most important thing is to make judgment based on the evidence not imaginations. I will wait to see you evidence to prove I have limited expectation on the nature of tutorials, in particular based on the comments I posted here.

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George Orwell

Zhongguoist
02 Jul 2007 16:07

There is a copy of Animal farm in English and translated into Chinese with illustrations available(redkemp's blog has a photo of it) but I'm guessing the censors didn't realise the allegory....

I have found that Chinese people can sometimes be less mature than English people of the same age. This is partly due to the way that lots of them are only children so that their parents take more care of them. I remember when I was travelling in China last year at 19 how surprised people were that my parents would let me travel halfway across the world by myself. I met people in China who were in their 20s but there parents would only allow them to leave their province for the first time when they graduated.

Also, I met quite a few of the Chinese/Taiwanese/Japanese students in Leeds and none of them had been given rape alarms or anything of the sort.

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On Balance

Alan Hong 
03 Jul 2007 04:48

Having taken a good 2 hours to read all the posts has been interesting to say the least.

A fair mixture of people feeling sensitive to criticism and the need to counter it balanced with more thougtful, insightful posts such as Nicholas and Q.

My perception is that Chinese students in China cannot afford to go out consuming large quantites of alcohol due to cost, social disapproval certainly from parents and also from their peers.

The comments made about "nothing to do" in either the UK or in China stems from each individuals personal tastes as to what they are culturally accustomed to and what their normal social habits may be: in China people enjoy karaoke interspersed with drinking, smoking, gossiping, eating nibbles and playing card games and more singing/drinking. In the UK, the thought of singing amongst friends is filled with dread.

In the UK, the emphasis is on a Friday/Saturday night drinking course laced with gossip, joking, pulling the opposite sex or at least complimenting on them and drinking all night without food whilst mostly standing up due to a lack of seating. This is invariably leads to the end of night soak up at the chippie or kebab shop. In China the thought of standing up all night drinking would be unthinkable.

Having adapted to both, it seems to me that mainland Chinese and Brits simply have opposite ways of winding down.

Personally I find it striking that it tends to be the older generation in China who commonly spit everywhere and in the UK it is a certain type of baseball cap waering younger generation that likes a good spit.

On the dirtiness front, both the UK and China suffer from litter on the streets. It's just that the UK has a more efficient, organised and quicker litter clearing service.

These are generalisations and no malice has been intended.

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Hai: take it easy

John Nanchang China 06 Jul 2007 03:47

Hai: you don’t have to be convinced, and I have no interest in providing ‘proof’ of my general opinion: you either accept it or you don’t. Are you sure you’re not taking this all too seriously – take it easy?

To reiterate, I for one, liked and trusted my teachers at university and I particularly enjoyed the way tutorials developed in different directions, as tutorials were always a collection of different people with different ideas and passions. I didn’t’ see my teachers as people who were simply there to provide a set of facts about a given theory in exchange for a set fee. Equally, I was just as interested in the ideas put forward by other students as well as the teachers. I did learn, however, not single theories per se as if they were an end in themselves, but the ability to analyse theories or use theories to see the world or how other people use theories to see the world. Hopefully, I learned how to communicate with people, as well as the factual knowledge required to make an academic conversation. I considered the whole package, not just a single unpleasant experience in a particular tutorial on a given day.

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It's n

andyb 13 Nov 2007 23:02

Being English, and having spent some time in China I am a little saddened by some of these comments. Chinese and English entertainment culture are different. Yobbish drunken behaviour is something almost all English people take part in when young, but is something of which the country as a whole is not proud. Yet all countries have aspects of which they are not proud, which the tourist office does not advertise, and if you stay in a country for any time you will know what these are. But surely one of the points of studying in a foreign country is to learn how to open your mind to new and different experiences, to understand things from other points of view, to learn what others think of your country and so forth. Scratch us all and Chunese and English have many things in common. Why not explore these rather than highlighting the differences?

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So what if the British drink?

global city zen 19 Nov 2007 05:01

Hi

Reading this article and comments have been enlightening for me. I moved to the UK as a teen from Taiwan to attend boarding school here. Yes, it's true that the UK is a nation that lives for drinking. It's deeply ingrained within their culture but I do think it's wrong to criticise this difference. I think this is a cultural trait for the British to socialise and break the ice. I see it as a friendly way for people to bond. Although I am not Chinese but TAiwanese, I am well aware that the Chinese compared to other Asians tend not to use drinking as a tool to socialise with others. In Japan and Korea it is also a culture very similar to the British drinking culture in that they drink to unwind and have a laugh together. I don't agree that there is nothing to do in the UK at nights from a Chinese commentator. In fact, I find the Chinese can be quite dull as they tend to stay within small groups even amongst the Chinese and tend not to trust other Chinese. I think it's a great way to break the ice and make friends through drinking. One needn't drink to get drunk but if that's what someone does, so be it. It's really their choice isn't it? Why should others care so much unless it was their own immediate family? It irritates me when the Chinese come over to other countries and expect things/people to behave the same way as their countrymen/culture. What the Chinese don't understand is that other nations do not need to be so practical as they are 1st world nations. I don't understand why the Chinese person felt the English lecturer should not stray from the subject of economics and discuss the situation of 2 different countries. Why did he come over to have a 'Western' education if all he wanted was rote education as administered in China? It is this kind of behaviour that typifies the Chinese 'stubborness' in integrating other cultures and learning from them. I feel the Chinese still have a lot to learn from the modern world and become 'modern' in their attitudes towards others. How dare they come over and use they the excuse that they are shy or not familiar w/the English language to isolate themselves? Being a TAiwanese and knowing the Chinese on a 1st hand-basis I can clearly confirm that they are not shy amongst their own group nor are they lacking in English abilities by the time they leave their univeristy in China. They still have a 'me' 'centre of world' attitude and expect people to make efforts with them. They are still too obsessed with 'losing face' and rejection. This warped level of perfection they hope in others is out-of-date when they should look at themselves and ask themselves are they perfect?

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Something about Chinese

Xenia Zuo 05 Dec 2007 09:40

I’m a Chinese student. It is true that most people from Asia especially China have drawn their presumptions about the British people to be polite, gentle, and elegant.

In Chinese society, public behaviors are very important in judging a person. The educated people in China do not spit in public places while the older generations always do because they haven’t been taught that spitting is not civilized. Drunkenness and playing in pubs both show the lack of education of a person, especially the young people. Parties are regarded as a waste of time which is only spent by the ruffians. (I don’t agree with somebody who thinks that Chinese young people are sitting in the Internet room playing games and chatting on QQ all the nights. Most of Chinese students face the high academic competitions and have no time to waste in entertainment.) Girls who spent a whole night out of their bedrooms should be criticized and looked down on. The gaps between the two social cultures and the previous misunderstanding from the media (movies and books) result in the shock to peoples’ expectations.

Of course, sometimes Chinese students are too shy to communicate with the local students in Britain because of their inferiority in speaking English. They do have some barriers in making new friends. I honestly agree that the Chinese students should make more effort to know the country which they are studying in and try to communicate with the English speakers. But on another hand, most of the Chinese international students are under the big stress of money and the social expectation. The parents pay several million RMB for their children to study abroad and that’s a very large amount of money in China! The Chinese students cannot spend their nights in the pubs and drinking together with same-aged young British people. They have to be working on their assignments and take part-time jobs to earn money because of the incredibly high living costs.

I’ve been to Manchester several years ago. What really impressed me a lot was that the city was as dirty as many cities in China. There were rubbish and plastic bags everywhere in the bus stop in the city center. But Britain has a better serviced rubbish cleaning system than China, where the government totally doesn’t care on how dirty the city is. Chinese people consider the “face” as an important thing simply because they want to show that China has been more powerful and Chinese people are ebullient.

Actually, I really like the country of Britain, and I wish the Chinese students could try their best to be adjusted to the new life style in such a wonderful country.

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We all see things in a limited way

Narcissus 05 Dec 2007 15:41

I am a Chinese student who is about to study in a western country. I agree with some of your points. Sometimes this kind of exchange can lead to more serious prejudices. One of my friends who recently came back from America said that she would never enter that country because her teacher teased her on the idea that Taiwan belongs to China. She was laughed by everyone in class and she cried. That can be an example of your point. However most of the time, things always get in the middle. We are brought in completely different traditons, cultures and politics. It's hard for us to see things in a similar way.
Here in China every teenager is told to be a good student. We stay away from alcohol, tobacco and Internet bars. Everyone has the same target: learn hard and enter a good university. Most of the time there is no other way for you to make a living unless you have some special skills like sporting and acting. Considering the large amount of people in China, you have to admit that it is natural for parents to bind their children to study. Individuality is forbidden. Otherwise you will be regarded as a problem-teenager which is an awful term for us. So the envrironment around us forces us to see things in a relatively conservative way. My grandma always gets angry when she sees young women wearing drop waist dresses. I hear in western countries you'll be regarded as a gay if you don't have a boy/girl friend when 14. However many of us here don't have boy/girl friends even in college. I study in a foreign language school in China and we are being said relatively international. However I sometimes hear terrible words about us which can ruin our reputation. So you can see that how critical Chinese are towards international. But we are progressing all these years. 50 years ago most Chinese even didn't know who they were marrying to until the weddings. So it is natural that Chinese students have some strange feelings towards British young people.
On the other hand, western people are brought up in a much more opened way. They see freedom beyond everything. Everthing revolves around freedom. Unmarried men and women can live together. In China, however, it is claimed illegal( although no one gets punished actually). The things they know about China are quite limited and some flaws are zoomed in. The way they think is different so the result is surprisingly distinct. So do us Chinese. We sometimes are being told unbelievable things about forenign countries which can lead to misunderstanding about those countries. But actually this is not the case.
I'd like to quote one sentence from our first premier Zhou Enlai. "We come to look for similarities, not differences." Regardless of our background, there are still many things Britissh and Chinese people can find in common. And with time, we'll find more.

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A chinese student's opinion

Tony Yang 06 Dec 2007 13:20

I'm a chinese student and I am very lucky to have the chance to visit my favorite country, Britain. I want to talk about my own feeling.
In my mind, British people are all very gentle. Their behaviors and the way they speak are very charming. But when I arrived in Manchester on the first day, I found 4 drunken people sitting on the ground in the front of a bar. None of them wore the clothes, surprisely one of them was a woman. My host told me that there were many young people living here, and they made a lot of noise at night to decorate their party. But I slept very well every night.
I won't determine who is right and who is wrong. I just want to judge things by my eyes.
If the country always pay close attention to the shortage of other countries, the country will never has the improvement.
As Narcissus mentioned, "We come to look for similarities, not differences." said by Zhou Enlai, is quite a good point.

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The Beat Generation

Elizabeth Meng 06 Dec 2007 13:37

This article reminds me of the term ‘the beat generation’. Among those who belong to the beat generation, the old value of virtue no longer exists. They tend to believe the nihilism and what the Bible said ‘all is vanity and a chasing after wind’. There is no reason to accomplish something meaningful and benefits themselves as well as others. So, like the teenagers in Britain, they are indulged in alcohol, cigarettes and have parties all night. What they chase is to maximize the fun. How their future will be is not an issue they concern about. Moreover, this comes to the difference between Chinese and Western people’s philosophy. Chinese people hold a view that had-working is the only way out whilst westerners are less likely to hide their desire of enjoy. The common goal of Chinese and Westerners are the same, that is to reach a wonderland where no worry and depression exists, though theirs ways to achieve this are polar apart. There are some movies and literature work describe the life of the beat generation, such as the famous movie

In addition, I am a Chinese student who is going to study in Australia. Although I haven been to neither Britain nor the US, I haven taken a trip to Denmark. When the first time I got there, I was shocked by the behavior of the young people. Their mother tongue is Danish, but as soon as they speak English, it turned out to be dirty one. Danish teenagers watched a lot of American TV animation, for instance, and < the Simpsons>. Those animations make fun of the problems in the society and are sarcastic to the celebrities. The language in it is slang or bad words, so the Danish teenagers learn from them immediately. The 17 years boy who hosted me acted like a gentleman. However, I went to a school party with him. Everyone is wild and crazy. They were dancing in the music, holding a bottle of beer with a drunken expression on the face. The boy told me that one of his friends was so drunk after a party that he lied in the middle of the road and couldn’t stand up. Almost all the Danish teenage have the experience of hangover. My host mother told me that it’s common in Danish society that young people drink too much alcohol and have too much parties, yet as soon as they become an adult, they are less crazy. Instead, they will be mutual and take up more responsibilies. The bad habits of there adolescence will completely disappear. There is a possibility that the situation in Britain might be the same.

The last but not the least, the young generation of China are not conservative and only good at study anymore. We can release our fun-loving nature whilst keep polite social behavior and the value of virtue. Sometime we might be cynical, but never vulgar or uncouth.

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Victorian China

global_city_ zen 24 Dec 2007 01:02

Hi

In response to some Chinese students' posts here I have to say that their outlook is quite 'Victorian' in today's day and age. As a Chinese, don't you feel that your life is quite oppressive in general? My god, a girl who stays out late is criticsed and looked down upon. People who drink, go to the internet or smoke are considered baddies? What about your govt, the way it censors everything and brainwashes your thinking about other cultures? Your impression of the British is gentle, polite, elegant people? How could you be so narrow-minded about a culture? There are many types of people here. In the UK they are not a communist country so you are going to see freedom extended into people's lives about how they want to behave. That is the problem with the Chinese, that they can't see the perspective of others. I have met many Chinese overseas and I do have to say that they are exactly as the Chinese here have described: prudish, goody goodies, critical of others, self-centred and unwilling to integrate themselves and have fun. What is wrong with having too many parties? Are you jealous? Danish people watch Western shows that are sarcastic to celebrities? It's called having a sense of humour which the Mainland Chinese greatly lack. If you go to Hong Kong, Japan, Taiwan or Korea you will find similar shows in which they take the piss out of people who take themselves too seriously like yourselves. Give me a break. You will not be missed if you decide to promptly return to your country if you don't want to fit into Western society. Yours truly a fun-loving Taiwanese. PS To Narcissus who said that an American teacher left a Taiwanese student in tears. I highly doubt she would be in tears over something like that. The issue of Taiwan is not that much of a concern to Americans so it's possibly something you've made up to be provocative. Even if that even did occur, a Taiwanese would not be so concerned over one person's opinion.

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A Further Comment

global_city_ zen 24 Dec 2007 01:27

Ok, I am shooting my mouth off a bit but I want to also dispute the obligation of the 'dutiful' Chinese citizen that has to work hard at school to get ahead. Yes, that goes without saying that one must work hard to succeed in life. However, I have to disagree that every student must go through this ritual of education. I used to teach in China and found that students' lives there was very harsh. 4 yr olds having to lug a mini suitcase full of books to school. No playtime apart from phy ed. Rote memorization with a lack of independent thinking and creativity. This is exactly like Imperial China where one had to pass all exams to qualify for a 'respectable' position in society. Doesn't the Chinese realise that this breaks a person's character and makes them dull? Maybe that is the point. I think most people would rather meet a well-rounded, interesting individual than a dull acadmeic individual. I think there should be a balance of leisure and work in our lives. Making those students in China study so hard with cram school after normal school hours is cruel. Some of my former students lacked the ability to perform well not having enough rest or sleep. They seemed so stressed out and miserable at an early age. Some couldn't cope simply because they didn't have the natural ability to excel in academic subjects. Of course, it makes sense to study hard only if you have that natural capability. For some people, it's a no brainer but for most it's a lot of suffering which the Chinese are good at (sorry but I am not being racist here, students have told me this). So please Chinese students when you return you can learn that you are not a failure in life if you don't end up as a lawyer, doctor etc...

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Be careful choosing where you stay

IndianFella 13 Feb 2008 12:00

Well, i worked in UK for almost 2 years for a very reputed IT firm. My colleagues were kind of ok and so was the firm for which i worked. I wouldn't say Brits are outright friendly people but you can live with them. Indians, atleast, are very friendly to outsiders who come to India, but you can't expect everyone to behave that way. The youngsters on the streets and in buses there really grossed me out. I had a couple of bad experiences, but then i wouldn't paint the entire population based on that. Scotts and Irish were especially friendly people. Again, if you are asian, i would really suggest you stay away from pubs at night time. Better safe than sorry. Try to stay at East ham, ilford etc where there is a big Indian community. Either that, or an upper class white area would also be good.