Why learn Latin?

RE: To a Chinese learner, whether s/he will be confused? Anotherquestion, what's the role of Latin (especially for a Chinese)? Or whatwill Latin bring to a learner.

There are a lot of things in life that are best not measured in $ andhence there are those who advocate that any problem that can be fixedwith MONEY (alone) is really not a problem at all. There are at leastsome merits in such a view. For example, a good 30 to 50% of parentswant their kids to take up at least one music instrument. Would theworld witness 1 billion world-renowned musicians a generation from now?The possibility is next to 0. Take another example: what's the real useof having History, Geography, Physics, or Chemisty, etc. as part of theHigh School Curriculum anyway? Since most of us won't be PROFESSIONALhistorians, geologists, physicists or chemists. And even if some of usdo become historians, geologists..etc., they are LIKELY to find thattheir High School lessons were hopelessly over-simplified (more than afew viewpoints were at least debatable). Additionally, people often takejobs or change careers that had little or nothing to do with what theymajored in college. Is there then any basis for asserting that what theylearned or studied in school was a total waste?

Turning the table back to you on this issue, the question then becomeswhat kind of UTILITY were you expecting anyway? To be even more cynical,could anything ever become even more useless than all the energiesinvested in the series questions and answers in this post? While you mayindeed hate your Chinglish or small vocabulary or whatever, the thingcalled inertia can work wonders much more effectively than Curculio oranyone could ever imagine.

The study of Latin constitutes what's understood as part of thebroad-based education (there will always be a lot of people who areagainst "broad-based" education and instead focus on vocational aspectsof education only, but as you had experienced first hand,differentiation made too early doesn't not make your life happier orlife perspectives any more rewarding). Go back to one's roots orheritage is often heard but not practiced enough. On a worldwide basis,modern civilization and lifestyles have brought many ills, not the leastof which is the unfulfilledness in spirituality. And since we now livein a global village, cultual heritage is no longer confined to one'simmediate ancestors. Ancient Chinese civilization is now as Chinese asit is global, similarly, Greco-Roman heritage is no more foreign thanancient Japanese culture, despite of bigger geographical distance.

Many will continue to view Latin as a "luxury" item for spiritual growthbecause they have "heard" so many different and wrong things aboutLatin. Small surprise that some in the west would scare their owncompatriots that learning Chinese was tantamount to committing asuicide, because there were 50,000 or more Chinese characters tolearn--enough for several life-times! This 50K figure was probablyinferred from the total # of characters contained in Kangxi CharacterDictionary, never mind these advice-givers themselves knew next tonothing about Chinese but that didn't prevent them from giving their"learned" opinions for they knew it all! Did you personally know toomany native Chinese speakers who can read and write more than 10,000characters FLAWLESSLY? The same friendly warnings were generouslyshowered upon would-be learners of Latin in China! People are peopleEVERYWHERE.

So the approach?

1. Don't ask what Latin can do for you, ask what you can do to inheritthat common human experience from the West. Life is too short to performendless cost and benefit analyses and then choose to do nothing!

2. Don't broadcast your interest in Latin, the only predicable result:getting unwanted attention and in the end, you concede Latin is so"hard" that you have an inalienable RIGHT to fail--you fail because younever PLANNED for SUCCESS, not because something is too hard! In reallearning, one rarely needs a "group therapy" and "strategicalliance/partnership", so have some FAITH in yourself.

3. That being said, Latin is fundamentally different than either Chineseor English, it's a relational language. A knowledge of Latin opens upone's heart and mind further, polishes one's observational power onenever thought needed or existed. There are 300 to 400 different Latinprimers published in the United States alone since 1800 and almost eachone of them has a different perspective or teaching philosophy. Ofcourse, a full 70 to 80% more or less had equated the Latin languagewith Latin Grammar in very similar way that English teachers in Chinamore or less have chosen English grammar at the expense of the Englishlanguage and another 10 to 15% medicore or in trying to bridge the gapbetween 2 extreme views ended up rather unsuccessfully somewhere in themiddle. Again, people make similar mistakes in judgment calls--that'shardly anything new if you didn't realize by now. But with a total # ofLatin primers in the 300 to 400 range, even if the percentage forexcellent intros are small, that still leaves about a dozen or two inthe "good, very good or excellent" category. The task then is to choosethe most appropriate 1 or 2 or 3 according to one's background,maturity, preparedness etc. and GO WITH THE BOOK(S).

4. Once a decision is made, don't hesitate, spare no efforts, and thereis no need to be overly cautious about making mistakes--no one wouldever have learned how to walk/ride a bike if no trips or falls wereallowed--view mistakes as part of the normal learning curve. Latin mayhave a medium learning curve but the reward is also like no othersubject. How to put a $ in front of being able to read Aeneid or Cicero?If you figure out a way, feel free to teach the rest of us.

5. Timing is an all important factor too. All things equal, had you cometo bilinguist.com say 5 years ago, the inscriptions you may put infront of your W3 could be a lot shorter (and might as well be FASTINALENTE, or if 10 years ago, something as simple as VERITAS or GRAVITASwould suffice, or 5 years from now, it might well be lengthened to:MAGNA EST VERITAS ET PRAEVALEBIT and for learners of still more advancedage, dictionary reading might not be recommended at all). Why? Becauseone's mind is generally not as FLEXIBLE as 5 or 10 years ago but isnonetheless more flexible than 5 or 10 years from now and everything hasan expiration date, expressed or implied.

2007/12/4 10:31
curculio 于 2007年12月04日 10:46:52

请教学习拉丁文的几件事

你好，

我算是你贴子的一位读者，与你本不相识，也没人引荐，但为了求知解惑也顾不得了。

在译文里看到你谈拉丁文的学习，有几点疑惑，我想直接请教你是最高效的方式，望你能不辞辛劳，指点迷津。下面是具体问题。

1、学习拉丁文的动机是什么？是一种雅趣或是为了功用，抑或兼而有之？
2、除去明了一些字源的知识以外，学习拉丁文对学习英文可有助益？
3、拉丁文的学习，在一日投入两小时的前提下，多久能入门？
4、单学课本，久远了也会生疏的。不免要多读，可现时还有拉丁文读物出版吗？即便有，又有多少适合初阶读者呢？

再谢。

短信就是“素不相识”网友交流的一个平台，认识了，有人引荐了，客套倒是有了，有些话反倒不好说了。如果你以为因为不认识Ipsediem, 所以Ipsediem 有可能会藏着掖着啥，那就大错特错了。把别人在较短时间内点拨成比自己牛的不就是普天之下最好的广告么？Hence, thereis no potential conflict of interest on Ipsediem's side.

Ipsediem 现在/目前的确不了解你的学术背景，但只要你学Latin, 以后不乏了解的机会--it is NOT necessary inevery case to know such matters in advance.通过观察你学习Latin的过程和在此过程中所思考的问题，Ipsediem就可以获得对你思维方式、特点、价值观等诸多方面相当深刻的了解--knowledge or insight thus acquired, inmany cases, 决不亚于你的枕边人从朝夕相处中获得的感性认识。 这正是Latin 的可怕之处--there is NO WHERE to hide. 相比较而言，where you have been is not that important at all.

所谓学习Latin“最高效的方式”, Ipsediem 真的是不知道，也不想知道，因为很可能没有最高，只有更高，而且会因人而异。Ipsediem 知道的是使用 Magoffin/Berry 一条道儿跑到黑，大约 800-1000 hrs之后可以利用参考书读懂《高卢战纪》的原文，西方向来把《高卢战纪》作为 Latin 入门的标志。至于“方法”，这里有一篇：

http://www.stph.com.cn/mybbs/Announce/announce.asp?BoardID=18&ID=200845&ac=pre&rd=106988&r=104521&p=6&Upflag=1&q=3

切记切记，this is highly highly important. 看懂后遵照执行就行了。

1. 至于“动机”，有明确动机不如“没有”。以罗马人在世界史上的应有地位来看，it's simply worth knowing theirlanguage first hand and they are highly highly interesting people.

2. 润物细无声。你说的好处都很实际，但有些根本性的转变是没法折算成 dollar sign 的：比如多一双不同的眼睛/眼光（thehistoricalperspective）来看待世界上万事万物，让你更全面，更客观，更长于事物的分类和比较，远离偏激、偏见等等，这些都如何换成钱？

3. Ipsediem 的提法是靠 800-1000 hrs 的自学能完成 Magoffin/Berry上下两册（课文正文约800页，32开的书），等于能入门。800-1000 hrs看起来很多，但即使不“浪费”在Latin上，你能保证一定能用到刀刃上么？不断学英语来学英语看起来无比合理合法，但是否多少有一些“头痛医头脚痛医脚”的味道？等你不计较眼前得失利弊了或者对眼前利弊麻木了，懒得去盘算了，you are then EMOTIONALLY ready tostudy Latin or anything else equally worthwhile.

至于 800-1000 hrs 的波动幅度是因为毕竟人与人之间还是有些差异，智力非智力因素都存在，还有 common sense的多寡不同，这些因素会造成差异。如果学完Magoffin前20课后，你还是觉得Latin 除了苦恼爬还是苦恼爬, 罗马人太不可理喻了，thenyou may want to reconsider your decision to learn Latin.这20课怎么也不会花费超过100hr的，权当作义工好了，毕竟你在金钱上也没有吃亏吧(顶多赔上一本空白笔记本，如此而已），损失的只是一点个人休息时间嘛。

KNEY 的入门（同样是从0基础开始的），大约是9个月的时间。But again, let's be honest, KNEY的劣势是年龄偏大，有家有小，KNEY的优势是 a highly motivated learner, 他平均每天投入2-3hrs,如果因为出差等原因耽误了，连续2-3天没摸 Magoffin/Berry， 会感到很难受，很失落。这是无法强迫的feeling. And this, perhaps, is more important than any SCIENTIFIC method ever invented for learning Latin.

尽可能地利用 Magoffin/Berry 自学，自学不懂的问题，每个单元集中汇总之后拿来问。提问方式可参考 KNEY，请给出section, page and line number:

http://www.stph.com.cn/mybbs/Announce/Announce.asp?BoardID=18&ID=218732

缴租不是必须的，但如果你长期欠租不缴，Ipsediem 头一个怀疑你 fail 掉了/completely lost with no hope for recovery.

4. Magoffin/Berry 本身就是以大量阅读为主的教材。网上免费可读的读物太多太多了。 比如 the Latin library:

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/

http://www.edonnelly.com/latin/