温家宝：言论自由对于任何国家都是不可或缺的-中国选举与治理网

    温家宝说，“我相信言论自由对于任何国家都是不可或缺的……我经常说，我们不仅应当让人们有言论自由，更重要的是，我们还要创造条件让他们批评政府的工作。”当被问及询最近在深圳的讲话，他说政治改革是邓小平很久以前就提出的。他还说，“长江后浪推前浪”，下一代领导人的改革开放会超越现在的这一代。（摘要，点击这里查看视频）

　　接受CNN主持人札卡利亚（Fareed Zakaria）专访时，谈到腐败与通胀，温家宝说，“那是我非常努力试图控制好的事情，因为我相信腐败和通胀会对我们国家政权的稳定产生负面影响。”

　　在CNN星期天播出的专访中，温家宝说，这两个问题也事关人民对政府的信任与支持。

　　据CNN视频，扎卡利亚在节目介绍中说，最近几个月来，很多消息都在证明中国地位的上升。他提到正当中国超越日本成为全球第二大经济体时，中日在钓鱼岛问题上的冲突引起全球关注。扎卡利亚还介绍了温家宝从地质工程师到国家领导人的经历。他说，温家宝工作“极端努力，”在中国广受尊重；由于温家宝在四川地震灾区的亲民作风，被称为“温爷爷”。

　　据CNN网站文字报道，尽管美国遭遇金融危机，温家宝说他对全球最大经济体的管理并没有失去信心。“就我来说，我从（美国）经济危机中接受的最大教训就是，管理一个国家，必须密切注意解决经济中的结构性问题。”

　　温家宝说，奥巴马政府的出口倍增计划和投资基础设施建设都是正确的，尽管实施的比较晚。他希望美国经济尽快复苏。

　　温家宝说，中国的主要目标之一就是要建设成创新型强国。

　　扎卡利亚问道对互联网和言论自由的限制会否影响那个目标的实现，温家宝说，“我相信言论自由对于任何国家都是不可或缺的……我经常说，我们不仅应当让人们有言论自由，更重要的是，我们还要创造条件让他们批评政府的工作。”

　　温家宝说，“但所有这些都必须在宪法和法律的范围内进行，以便国家保持正常的秩序。那对于中国这样一个具有13亿人口的大国尤其必要。”

　　另据法新社报道，温家宝说，“我对控制通胀预期有些担心”。今年9月中，北京承认8月消费者通胀指数出现将近两年来最快的上升步伐，因为洪水和不寻常的天气毁坏大量农田，推高食品和蔬菜价格。

　　中国消费者价格指数8月也出现连续第10个月的上升，但分析家说，通胀还不足以引起决策者在近期内提高利率。

　　温家宝说，中国两年前推出的刺激计划在全球金融危机中促使中国经济走上正确轨道。“实施刺激计划保证了中国保持稳定、较快的经济增长，”避免中国的现代化进程在外界严重冲击下大起大落。

　　CNN说，中美之间的另一重大问题就是人民币汇率。美国总统奥巴马说，中国汇率低估，造成中国对美出口有利和美国贸易赤字。

　　温家宝接受采访时说，中国并不追求贸易顺差。温家宝说，认为人民币汇率低估的看法是因为美国人，尤其是国会，“不完全了解中国。”

　　他说，“他们将中美关系问题政治化，尤其是我们两国间的贸易不平衡。我不认为这是正确的做法。”

　　温家宝还表示，中共中央前总书记胡耀邦，是很好的中国领导人。

　　温家宝稍早巡视深圳时说：“不仅要推进经济体制改革，还要推进政治体制改革；没有政治体制改革的保障，经济体制改革的成果就会得而复失。”他接下来更说：“违背人民的意志，最终只会死路一条。”

　　温家宝被询及他最近从深圳开始公开主张的政治改革时，他说那是邓小平很久以前就提出的。

　　至于两年后上台的中国下一代领导人，是否会继续改革开放，温家宝说“长江后浪推前浪。“他有信心下一代领导人的改革开放会超越现在这一代。

　　札卡利亚提起温家宝今年四月在《人民日报》专文回忆胡耀邦。札卡利亚问，他是否认为胡耀邦是个很好的中国领导人？温家宝答称，是的，“我是公正评价这个人的历史。”

　　温家宝说胡耀邦对促进中国改革开放做出了贡献，胡耀邦组织和推动了关于真理标准的讨论，解放了人们的思想；而胡耀邦组织和领导了平反大批文革冤假错案，则解放了许多人。

温家宝上CNN谈民主反腐 （联合早报，2010年10月4日）

　　（综合讯）据明报报道 中国总理温家宝访问希腊期间，罕有接受美国有线新闻网络（CNN）专访，触及不少北京视为忌讳的话题。

　　温家宝在CNN的《Fareed Zakaria GPS》节目中亮相，他指通胀和腐败可能影响中国稳定，又指人民对民主自由的诉求是不可抗拒的。

　　他说，「我的确对中国通胀预期的管理感到担忧……我相信，贪污腐败和通胀，对会我们国力的稳定，有负面影响。」

　　温家宝被问到中国对互联网和对言论自由的限制，是否影响了中国成为一个强大国家时，温家宝答道，言论自由在任何国家都是不可缺少的。

　　温家宝被问及中国对许多网站仍然加以限制时回答说，「我和中国人民都相信，中国将继续进步，人民对民主自由的诉求是不可抗拒的。」

　　不过，他也强调，这样的民主开放过程，在一个有13亿人口的大国，必须确保有正常秩序。

　　温家宝又反驳，外界对中国缺乏了解。他指，中国有四亿网民和八亿手机用户，他们可以上网表达自己的意见，包括批评意见。

英文原文：

Transcript courtesy of CNN's press office

"CNN's FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" must be credited for use of this material.

The Sunday, October 3, 2010, edition of CNN's FAREED ZAKARIA GPS featured a rare interview with WEN JIABAO, Premier of China.

Zakaria last interviewed Premier Wen in 2008.  The Chinese leader has given no Western media interviews since then.  This program aired on CNN International at 8pm (Hong Kong time) and will replay tomorrow (Monday, October 4, 2010) at 4am (Hong Kong time).

MANDATORY CREDIT for reference and usage: "CNN's FAREED ZAKARIA GPS

TO DOWNLOAD IMAGES FROM THIS INTERVIEW, PLEASE VISIT:
       20496_001 Fareed Zakaria_jiabao press: http://imftp.turner.com/?f=59mf

       INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

       FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": Do you feel that the global economy is, at this point, stable and strong?  Or do you worry a lot that there is a danger of the so-called double dip, that the United States, in particular, could go back into a recession?

       PREMIER WEN JIABAO, CHINA (through translator):  Well, objectively speaking, I think the world economy is recovering, although the process of recovery is a slow and torturous one.  People may not have the same view on this matter, but I believe we will learn a lesson from the reality.  I hope that there will be a quick recovery of the U.S. economy, because, after all, the U.S. economy is the largest in the world.

       I have taken note of the recent policies and measures taken by President Obama, including the program of doubling the United States exports and the massive investment in infrastructural development.  I think these passes and measures are the ones on the right track, moving in the right direction.  Although they came a little bit late, they still came in time.

       This reminds me of the time when I took the big decision of advancing a massive stimulus package in China.  Back then, people had different views concerning this policy.  But now, the progress has shown that our stimulus package is a successful one.

       ZAKARIA:  Your stimulus package was 10 times larger, as a percentage of your GDP, than -- than the U.S. one.  It was an extraordinary program.

       Is there a worry that it has -- it has produced a bubble in China, in real estate? Are there dangers of inflation because the government spent so much money? And what happens now that that stimulus is going to wear off? There will be less and less government spending.

       WEN:  From what you said, I think you have not seen our stimulus package in its full or in its entirety.  I would like to say that our stimulus package has four key components.

       The first is massive public spending, structural tax cuts and infrastructural development.

       The second is the adjustment and upgrading of industrial structure in China.

       The third is scientific and technological innovation and the development of emerging industries with strategic significance.

       The fourth is the improvement of social safety net. The $4 trillion RMB Yuan investment does not all come from the government.

       Public finance only accounts for $1.18 trillion RMB Yuan and the rest will come from the non-public sector and fundraising from financial markets.

       The implementation of the stimulus package has insured the continuance of steady and relatively fast economic growth in China.

       It has helped maintain the good momentum of China's economic development in the past 30 years and it has helped us avoid major fluctuations in the process of China's modernization because of a severe external shock.

       At the same time, it has laid a solid foundation for future development of the Chinese economy.  We are on high alert against the challenge that you referred to in your question.

       Let me make three points. First, there is a possibility of inflation in China.

       That is why we have formulated the task of skillfully manage the relations between maintaining steady and relatively fast economic development, structural adjustment and managing inflation expectations.  This is at the core of China's macroeconomic control.

       I do have worry for the management of inflation expectations in China.  And that is something that I have been trying very hard to manage appropriately and well, because I believe corruption and inflation will have an adverse impact on stability of power in our country.  And these two both concern the trust and support of people in the government.  And this is the perspective that I see the issue of inflation in China.

       Second, with implementation of the stimulus package, there are fiscal and financial risks at the level of local governments.  We have some financing vehicles of local governments.  They have some debts.

       But this is not a new problem that took place after the break -- outbreak of the financial crisis.  Rather, this already came into being back in the 1980s.

       Now, with the financing platforms of local governments in place, they have accumulated a total debt about $7.6 trillion RMB Yuan.

       And I can say that this debt, at the local level, is still within a range that we can manage.  But it is important that we appropriately handle this matter to ensure that the debts at local governments' level will not bring about risks in our public finance and in the financial sector.

       The ratio of budget deficit in China's total GDP is within 3 percent. The total debts in China versus GDP's ratio is within 20 percent range.

       That is to say, it's still in the range that we can manage.

       The third point is a more important one, that is, all our investment now must be conducive to our economic structural adjustment, not the contrary.  This concerns our long-term development prospects and therefore is of high importance.

       ZAKARIA: May I ask you what lesson you have drawn from the financial crisis? Have you lost faith in American macroeconomic management?

       A Chinese friend said to me, he said, "We were like the students in class and we would always listen to what the Americans would tell us."  And now we look up, and we think, "Maybe the teacher actually didn't know what he was talking about."

       WEN: In the face of the financial crisis, any person who has a sense of responsibility towards the country, and towards the entire human race should learn lessons from the financial crisis. As far as I'm concerned, the biggest lesson that I have drawn from the financial crisis is that, in managing the affairs of a country, it's important to pay close attention to addressing the structural problems in the economy.

       China has achieved enormous progress in its development, winning acclaim around the world. Yet, I was one of the first ones to argue that our economic development still lacks balance, coordination, and sustainability. This financial crisis has reinforced my view on this point. On the one hand, we must tackle the financial crisis; on the other, we must continue to address our own problems. And we must do these two tasks well at the same time, and this is a very difficult one.

       China has a vast domestic market. And there is a great
potential in China's domestic demand. China is at a stage of
accelerated urbanization and industrialization. We can rely on
stimulating domestic demand to stabilize and further grow the Chinese
economy. This requires us that we must seize the opportunities, speed
up our development, and stabilize the Chinese economy.

       And on that basis, we must take a long term perspective to
address all these structural challenges in our economy. As far as the
US economy is concerned, I always believe that the U.S. economy is
solidly based, not only in a material sense, but more importantly, the
United States has the strength of scientific and technological talent,
and managerial expertise.

       It has accumulated a wealth of experience in its economic
development over the past...more than 200 years. In spite of the
twists and turns, the United States, I believe, will tide over the
crisis and difficulties, and we must have confidence in the prospects
of the U.S. economy.

       The recovery and further growth of the largest economy in the
world-that is, the U.S. economy-is in the interest of the recovery and
stability of the world economy.

       [BREAK]

       ZAKARIA:  You -- you wrote an article about your old boss, Hu
Yaobang, which I was very struck by.  In it, you praised him.  Do you
think, in retrospect, that Hu Yaobang was a very good leader of China?

       WEN:  Yes.  I think I have given a fair assessment of the
history of this person.  He made his own contributions to China's
reform and opening up.  I want to make the following three points.

       First, he vigorously advanced the debate surrounding the
criteria in judging what truth is.  And through that, he has
contributed to the effort of freeing people's minds.

       Second, irrespective of various resistance, he took steps to
free a large number of officials and cadres who were wronged in the
Cultural Revolution.

       And, third, he himself took actions to advance China's reform
and opening up.

       ZAKARIA:  You - you speak,  in your speeches, about how China
is not yet a strong and creative nation in terms of its economy.

       Can you be a strong and creative nation with so many
restrictions on freedom of expression, with the Internet being
censored?  Don't you need to open all that up if you want true
creativity?

       WEN:  I believe freedom of speech is indispensable for any
country,  a country in the course of development and a country that
has become strong.  Freedom of speech has been incorporated into the
Chinese constitution.

       I don't think you know all about China on this point.  In
China, there are about 400 million Internet users and 800 million
mobile phone subscribers.

       They can access the Internet to express their views, including
critical views.  I often log onto the Internet and I have read sharp
critical comments on the work of the government, on the Internet and
also there are commendable words about the work of the government.

       I often say that we should not only let people have the
freedom of speech.  We,  more importantly,  must create conditions to
let them criticize the work of the government.  And it is only when
there is the supervision and critical oversight from the people that
the government will be in a position to do an even better job and
employees of government departments will be the true public servants
of the people.

       All these must be conducted within the range allowed by the
constitution and the laws.

       So that the country will have a normal order.  And that is all
the more necessary for such a large country as China, with 1.3 billion
people.

       ZAKARIA:  Premier Wen  -- since we are being honest, when I
come to China and I try to use the Internet, there are many sites that
are blocked.  It is difficult to get information.  Any opinion that
seems to challenge the political primacy of the,  of the party is not
allowed.  Hu Yaobang, for example, was not somebody who could be
mentioned in the - in "The China Daily" until your own article
appeared.  It just feels to me like all these restrictions -- this --
the vast apparatus that monitors the Internet are -- are going to make
it difficult for your people to truly be creative and to truly do what
it seems you wish them to do.

       WEN:  I believe I and all the Chinese people have such a
conviction that China will make continuous progress and the people's
wishes for and needs for democracy and freedom are irresistible.  I
hope that you will be able to gradually see the continuous progress of
China.

       ZAKARIA:  You have given a - a series of very interesting
speeches in the last few weeks -- the last few months.  I was
particularly struck by one you gave in Shenzhen, where you said,
"Along with economic reform, we must keep doing political reform."
This is a point you made in our last interview.  But a lot of people I
know in China -- Chinese people say there has been economic reform
over the last six or seven years, but there has not been much
political reform.

       What do you say to people who listen to your speeches and they
say, "We love everything Wen Jiabao says, but we don't see the actions
of political reform?"

       WEN:  Actually, this is a viewpoint that was put forward by
Mr. Deng Xiaoping a long time ago.

       And I think anyone who has a sense of responsibility for his
country should have deep thinking about this topic and put what he
believes into action.

       I have done some deeper thinking about this topic since we
last met.  My view is that a political party, after it becomes a
ruling party,  should be somewhat different from the one when it was
struggling for power.

       The biggest difference should be that this political party
should act in accordance with the constitution and the law.

       The policies and propositions of a political party can be
translated into parts of the constitution and the laws through
appropriate legal procedures.  All political parties, organizations
and all people should abide by the constitution and laws without any
exception.  They must all act in accordance with the constitution and
laws.

       I see that as a defining feature of modern political system development.

       I have summed up my political ideals into the following four sentences.

       To let everyone lead a happy life with dignity.  To let
everyone feel safe and secure.  To let the society be one with equity
and justice and to let everyone have confidence in the future.

       In spite of the various discussions and views in the society
and in spite of some resistance, I will act in accordance with these
ideals unswervingly and advance, within the realm of my capabilities,
political restructuring.

       I would like to tell you the following two sentences to
reinforce my case on this or my view on this point, that is, I will
not fall in spite of a strong wind and harsh rain and I will not yield
till the last day of my life.

       [BREAK]

       ZAKARIA: The currency issue is a difficult one, the renminbi.
Let me put it to you this way: despite assurances from China, the
renminbi has only appreciated 1.8% in the last two years. Is it not in
China's interest to allow for more significant appreciation?

       Because right now, you are subsidizing exporters at the cost
of the wages of the ordinary Chinese workers. You're risking some
inflation. And it creates the very lack of balance that you talk
about. So, wouldn't it be good for China to allow a more substantial
appreciation of the renminbi?

       WEN JIABAO, PREMIER OF CHINA: Allow me to make a comment on
what you just said. I think your view still represents the view of the
United States. Or, to be more specific, the view of a small number of
members of Congress of the United States.

       The Chinese economy and the US economy are closely interconnected.

       Our bilateral trade has already reached 300 billion U.S.
dollars. US investment in China has exceeded 60 billion US dollars.
China has purchased US T-Bonds worth about 900 billion US dollars.

       No one will believe that the Chinese leadership does not
follow closely the development of the US economy. Yet, some people in
the United States, in particular some in the US Congress, do not know
fully about China. They are politicizing the problems in China-US
relations-in particular, the trade imbalance between our two
countries.

       I don't think this is the right thing to do.

       I highly appreciate you giving me this opportunity of the
interview, because you gave me the opportunity to further explain what
the real situation is. There are three points which are not widely
known with regard to exchange rate of RMB and China's trade surplus.

       First, China does not pursue a trade surplus.

       Our objective in having foreign trade is to have balance and
sustainable trade with other countries, and we want to have a basic
equilibrium in our balance of payments. This is what we have been
saying and doing.

       In 2008, China's surplus and current accounts ratio in GDP
stood at 9.9 percent. On 2009, that figure dropped to 5.8 percent.
And in the first half of 2010, that figure further declined to 2.2
percent.

       Second, the increase of a trade surplus of a country is not
necessarily linked with the exchange policy of that country.  We
started the reform of RMB exchange rate regime back in the 1994.  And
since then, the Chinese currency has appreciated by 55 percent against
the U.S. dollar.

       And over the same time frame, the currencies of major
economies and currencies of China's neighboring countries have all
depreciated by a large margin.

       China's trade has been growing fast over the same time frame.
Actually, there is a period like that in the history of the United
States, too.  In the almost 100 years between the 1870s and 1970s, the
United States was a surplus country.

       And this is actually what would happen for a country in a
certain stage of development.

       The third point, which is a more important one and one that
you are aware of, that is, the trade imbalance between our two
countries is mainly structural in nature.  China runs a trade surplus
in processing trade but a deficit in general trade.  China has a trade
surplus in trade in goods, but a deficit in trade in services -- in
services.

       We have a trade surplus with the United States and the
European Union, but a deficit with Japan, the ROK  and ASEAN
countries.  Many of the Chinese exports to the United States are no
longer produced in the U.S. and I don't believe that the United States
will restart the production of those products -- products which are at
the low end of the value added chain.  Even if you don't buy those
products from China, you still have to buy them from India, Sri Lanka
or Bangladesh.  And that will not help resolve the trade imbalance
between our two countries.

       I remember that you gave the example of iPod player in the
United States. An iPod player is sold at $299 in the States.  But the
Chinese producer only gets $4 in processing fee.

       There is another point that I think you may not be aware of, a
point that many of the members of the U.S. Congress are not aware of.
That is, out of the 50,000 U.S. companies registered in China, 22,000
of them are export companies and to impose sanctions on export
companies in China is tantamount to imposing sanctions on U.S.
companies.

       [BREAK]

       ZAKARIA: You know, the last time we talked, I, we, we, I asked
you what books you were reading and what books you - you found
interesting.  Is there some thing, some book you've read in the last
few months that you .that has impressed you?

       WEN: Well the books that are always on my shelves are books
about history because I believe history is like a mirror and I like to
read both Chinese history and history of foreign countries.

       There are two books that I often travel with. One is the
Theory on Moral Sentiments by Adam Smith.  The other is The
Meditations.

       It's not that I agree with all the views expressed in the
books.  But I believe ideas and thoughts of older generation can offer
food for thought for the current generation. There are too many
memoirs selling one-self nowadays.  I don't like reading those books.
I believe what a person should leave behind to the world is truth -
something true. And we must recognize that even truthful will things
will dissipate one day."

       ZAKARIA:  Let me ask you, as our final question, Premier Wen.
This has struck me as a -- as an example of your frankness.  You have
spoken of your determination to continue political reform despite
obstructions within the country and within the party - despite
opposition within the party.  You've spoken of your fear that
corruption and inflation will erode social stability.  You've praised
Hu Yaobang and talked about the wise leadership he provided, even
though he was regarded by many as a -- as a dangerously liberal
leader.

       Do you believe that the next generation of Chinese leaders,
who will take power in - in two years, will share your outlook and
keep trying to press the vision you are pressing forward?

       WEN:  You may think that have you asked the toughest question
today, but I think it is actually the easiest question to answer.  Let
me make two points with regard to that future you referred to.

       First, I would like to say that, as the Chinese saying goes,
as the Yangtze River forges ahead waves upon waves, the new generation
will invariably surpass the old.  I have confidence that future
Chinese leadership will excel the previous one.

       Second, it is the people and the strength of the people who
determine the future of the country and history.  The wish and will of
the people are not stoppable.  Those who go along with the trend will
thrive and those who go against the trend will fail.

       Thank you for the interview.

       ZAKARIA:  It's an honor and a pleasure. Thank you, Premier.